RE: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Mohsen Moeeni
Quoting Tim Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> 
> No idea -- my personal SB filter spares me from seeing almost all junk email
> from all sources, and I get a few hundred of them per day.  By far the
> biggest source is bounces to [EMAIL PROTECTED], due to viruses and spam
> forged to appear as if sent from [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Compared to that
> load, every other source is in the noise for me.

Just a quick note. Even if all members use anti-spam 
software to solve their spam problems, spams will still
reside in the archives and make there dirty -I beleive-
almost forever (unless you install a spam-filter for the
archives too)

Mohsen,
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RE: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Tim Peters
[Ken Manheimer]
> In either mode, essentially, list members would be able to get postings
> to the list only from their registered account.

Or accounts.  When I've faced a list like this as a user, I've subscribed
multiple times, once from each account I'm likely to post from, but set the
"no delivery" option on all but the primary (IMO) subscription.  This is
something users can do on their own.

> I don't have a confident guess about whether that would be prohibitive
> to any or many.  I suppose we could try it and see whether how it sits
> with people.

So far, the people who post from only one account have insisted it won't
make real trouble for anyone .  I don't know how it works for people
posting from gmane.

> There's also the incidental considerations - both modes have drawbacks.

Yes, but all modes have drawbacks, including the status quo.

> ...
> So i could see giving a try to non-member-posts-rejected,

That would actually lighten *our* (list admin) loads.  Nobody is sympathetic
to that except us, of course.  Even with the current "open list" policy, I
still get a ridiculous number of messages held for review.

> if the membership thinks the added inconvenience is worth the reduced
> spam.

There won't be consensus on this.  "Votes" on zodb-dev have been about
evenly split, and I don't expect that will change.

> I have the impression, though, that the spam on most of the high-traffic
> zope.org maillists is relatively low-proportion.  Am i mistaken?

No idea -- my personal SB filter spares me from seeing almost all junk email
from all sources, and I get a few hundred of them per day.  By far the
biggest source is bounces to [EMAIL PROTECTED], due to viruses and spam
forged to appear as if sent from [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Compared to that
load, every other source is in the noise for me.

> ...
> Reject (actually, discard) is pretty easy - you just have to reply to a
> particular attachment in the held-message notice.

Approval is the same process (at least under a current-enough Mailman),
except you need to put an

Approved: 

line in the headers, or as the body of the reply.  My VBA code knows the
list passwords for the various mailing lists, and discard/approve is just a
matter of clicking a button for me (one button for discard, another for
approve).  It still takes real time to open and review the messages Mailman
is asking about, though.

> (I **wish** the confirmation message for the discard would indicate
> that a discard happened - instead, it says "Confirmation succeeded",
> which is nearly worse than no feedback at all, ...

Even worse, it says exactly the same thing for an approved message.  But
wouldn't Barry be a better recipient for this rant ?

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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Michael Bernstein
Ken Manheimer wrote:
I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time to 
follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under the 
current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a way to 
swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the details.

Being the administrator of many of the zope lists (probably over ten and 
below twenty), i am already dismayed by the challenge of the typically 
thirty to one hundred held spam messages, bounces, and other effluvia i 
have to handle *per day*.  I do not know how many of the legitimate list 
messages would additionally be held and require more attention (with the 
current mailman implementation, it takes a lot more fuss to approve a 
held message than to discard it), but the load is already untenable, so 
one more is too many.
I believe the proposal wasn't to *hold* non-member emails, but to bounce 
them or discard them, so your workload should actually be reduced.

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RE: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Ken Manheimer

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Tim Peters wrote:
[Ken Manheimer]
I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time to
follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under the
current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a way to
swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the details.
I think you have something different in mind than was being discussed.
"Members only" comes in several flavors.  You seem to have the "... and
non-member posts are held for moderator review" flavor in mind.  That wasn't
suggested.  Two other flavors were:
- "... and non-member posts are rejected".  No messages are held for
 moderator review then.  A would-be poster with a legitimate email
 address gets an auto-generated rejection reply msg.  Since most
 rejection msgs would go to bogus addresses on spam and virus
 email, m.z.o gets another bounce back for most attempts to send a
 rejection reply.
- "... and non-member posts are discarded".  No messages are held for
 moderator review then.  Non-member posts go to the bit bucket, without
 comment or recourse.
In either mode, essentially, list members would be able to get postings to 
the list only from their registered account.  I don't have a confident 
guess about whether that would be prohibitive to any or many.  I suppose 
we could try it and see whether how it sits with people.

There's also the incidental considerations - both modes have drawbacks.
As you point out, non-member-posting-rejection increases the incidental 
mail spew being sent to zope.org, not insignificantly.

Non-member-posting-discard mode means some percentage of posters will have 
their postings discarded, and some percentage of those will fail to notice 
it never showed.  I think that kind of failure mode leads to really bad, 
insidious problems, and don't think it's an acceptable kind of noise to 
put into a system, so i would be a solid -1 on it.

So i could see giving a try to non-member-posts-rejected, if the 
membership thinks the added inconvenience is worth the reduced spam.  I 
have the impression, though, that the spam on most of the high-traffic
zope.org maillists is relatively low-proportion.  Am i mistaken?

[...]
There is an option, however.  It's possible to add moderators to lists,
separate from list administration privileges.  I would be willing to set
the lists to hold non-member postings, *if* there were volunteer
moderators that would actually take care of some significant portion of
the load - ie, i would not have to approve one non-member (alternate
In my (limited but real ) experience, this doesn't work.  Without a
single clear owner, postings held for review eventually grow to unmanageable
bulk.  Nobody enjoys the moderation task, it does consume time, and when
there are multiple moderators they all eventually reach a point of believing
that "someone else" can handle it for a while.  After a few days go by like
that, a co-moderator who is able to make some time logs in and finds such a
backlog that they decide they have more urgent work to attend to.  Then it
snowballs out of control.  We had a clear example of this about a month ago,
when the backlog of python-help messages waiting for review reached
thousands.  At that point the only realistic option was to discard all of
them, effectively making python-help the "... and non-member posts are
discarded" list flavor.
Well, that's useful info.
The only "... and non-member posts are held for review" list I moderate that
works is the PSF Board mailing list.  That works because I'm the only
moderator, legit traffic on it is very light, and I know enough Visual Basic
to automate the reject/approve process without leaving Outlook .
Reject (actually, discard) is pretty easy - you just have to reply to a 
particular attachment in the held-message notice.  (I **wish** the 
confirmation message for the discard would indicate that a discard 
happened - instead, it says "Confirmation succeeded", which is nearly 
worse than no feedback at all, because it sounds like my discard 
instrucation was taken as an approval.  But i haven't taken the time to do 
anything about it, sigh.)  Never tried approval-via-reply, since i'm 
afraid of screwing up the header, and mostly don't have to do emailled 
approvals, anyway.

Ken
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RE: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Tim Peters
[Ken Manheimer]
> I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time to
> follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under the
> current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a way to
> swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the details.

I think you have something different in mind than was being discussed.
"Members only" comes in several flavors.  You seem to have the "... and
non-member posts are held for moderator review" flavor in mind.  That wasn't
suggested.  Two other flavors were:

- "... and non-member posts are rejected".  No messages are held for
  moderator review then.  A would-be poster with a legitimate email
  address gets an auto-generated rejection reply msg.  Since most
  rejection msgs would go to bogus addresses on spam and virus
  email, m.z.o gets another bounce back for most attempts to send a
  rejection reply.

- "... and non-member posts are discarded".  No messages are held for
  moderator review then.  Non-member posts go to the bit bucket, without
  comment or recourse.

> Being the administrator of many of the zope lists (probably over ten and
> below twenty), i am already dismayed by the challenge of the typically
> thirty to one hundred held spam messages, bounces, and other effluvia i
> have to handle *per day*.  I do not know how many of the legitimate list
> messages would additionally be held and require more attention (with the
> current mailman implementation, it takes a lot more fuss to approve a
> held message than to discard it), but the load is already untenable, so
> one more is too many.
>
> There is an option, however.  It's possible to add moderators to lists,
> separate from list administration privileges.  I would be willing to set
> the lists to hold non-member postings, *if* there were volunteer
> moderators that would actually take care of some significant portion of
> the load - ie, i would not have to approve one non-member (alternate
> address) posting.  (I would not mind occasionally approving a
> non-member/alt-addr posting if the volunteers reduced the spam/bounce
> handling efforts in the process.)

In my (limited but real ) experience, this doesn't work.  Without a
single clear owner, postings held for review eventually grow to unmanageable
bulk.  Nobody enjoys the moderation task, it does consume time, and when
there are multiple moderators they all eventually reach a point of believing
that "someone else" can handle it for a while.  After a few days go by like
that, a co-moderator who is able to make some time logs in and finds such a
backlog that they decide they have more urgent work to attend to.  Then it
snowballs out of control.  We had a clear example of this about a month ago,
when the backlog of python-help messages waiting for review reached
thousands.  At that point the only realistic option was to discard all of
them, effectively making python-help the "... and non-member posts are
discarded" list flavor.

The only "... and non-member posts are held for review" list I moderate that
works is the PSF Board mailing list.  That works because I'm the only
moderator, legit traffic on it is very light, and I know enough Visual Basic
to automate the reject/approve process without leaving Outlook .

> ...
> That's the situation.  Are there people that would be willing to
> volunteer for moderation duties?  (Say which lists when you reply - and
> make sure to cc me directly, since i can't read most of the lists i
> moderate.)

The rub is that mailing lists are open 24 hours per day, 365.2425 days per
year, and virus/spam traffic keeps increasing.  Good intentions get crushed
by that reality.

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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Ken Manheimer wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
Ken Manheimer wrote:
What proportion of the list traffic comes from valid members who are 
posting from alternate accounts?

A huge percentage was - I don't know how much is making it through to 
the lists though.  I'm hearing a lot of complaints from people either 
third party, seeing it in IRC or from emails off the lists.

I've recently added an increased amount of header and body checks 
which were not being applied yesterday as well as increased spam 
reject features.  This should help - in any event now that it's being 
blocked at the MTA, Mailman's load on the server has went from 2 -3 
to ~.5 on the server in the last hour.
Andrew

Huh?  I was specifically talking about the legitimate postings, "valid 
members who are posting from alternate accounts", sounds like you're 
talking about spam.

Yeah, I was.  Misunderstood.  Others will have to answer this for 
themselves.  I've said my peace - so that's enough for me.
Andrew

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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Ken Manheimer
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
Ken Manheimer wrote:
What proportion of the list traffic comes from valid members who are 
posting from alternate accounts?
A huge percentage was - I don't know how much is making it through to the 
lists though.  I'm hearing a lot of complaints from people either third 
party, seeing it in IRC or from emails off the lists.

I've recently added an increased amount of header and body checks which were 
not being applied yesterday as well as increased spam reject features.  This 
should help - in any event now that it's being blocked at the MTA, Mailman's 
load on the server has went from 2 -3 to ~.5 on the server in the last hour.
Andrew
Huh?  I was specifically talking about the legitimate postings, "valid 
members who are posting from alternate accounts", sounds like you're 
talking about spam.

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
Ken Manheimer wrote:
I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time to 
follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under the 
current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a way to 
swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the details.

Being the administrator of many of the zope lists (probably over ten and 
below twenty), i am already dismayed by the challenge of the typically 
thirty to one hundred held spam messages, bounces, and other effluvia i 
have to handle *per day*.  I do not know how many of the legitimate list 
messages would additionally be held and require more attention (with the 
current mailman implementation, it takes a lot more fuss to approve a 
held message than to discard it), but the load is already untenable, so 
one more is too many.

Why would we hold non-member postings for review?  Why not simply outright 
reject them?



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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Ken Manheimer wrote:
What proportion of the list traffic comes from valid members who are 
posting from alternate accounts?
A huge percentage was - I don't know how much is making it through to 
the lists though.  I'm hearing a lot of complaints from people either 
third party, seeing it in IRC or from emails off the lists.

I've recently added an increased amount of header and body checks which 
were not being applied yesterday as well as increased spam reject 
features.  This should help - in any event now that it's being blocked 
at the MTA, Mailman's load on the server has went from 2 -3 to ~.5 on 
the server in the last hour.
Andrew

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
Ken Manheimer wrote:
I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time 
to follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under 
the current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a 
way to swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the 
details.

Being the administrator of many of the zope lists (probably over ten 
and below twenty), i am already dismayed by the challenge of the 
typically thirty to one hundred held spam messages, bounces, and 
other effluvia i have to handle *per day*.  I do not know how many 
of the legitimate list messages would additionally be held and 
require more attention (with the current mailman implementation, it 
takes a lot more fuss to approve a held message than to discard it), 
but the load is already untenable, so one more is too many.

Why would we hold non-member postings for review?  Why not simply 
outright reject them?


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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Ken Manheimer
What proportion of the list traffic comes from valid members who are 
posting from alternate accounts?

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
Ken Manheimer wrote:
I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time to 
follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under the 
current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a way to 
swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the details.

Being the administrator of many of the zope lists (probably over ten and 
below twenty), i am already dismayed by the challenge of the typically 
thirty to one hundred held spam messages, bounces, and other effluvia i 
have to handle *per day*.  I do not know how many of the legitimate list 
messages would additionally be held and require more attention (with the 
current mailman implementation, it takes a lot more fuss to approve a held 
message than to discard it), but the load is already untenable, so one more 
is too many.

Why would we hold non-member postings for review?  Why not simply outright 
reject them?
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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Ken Manheimer wrote:
I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time to 
follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under the 
current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a way to 
swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the details.

Being the administrator of many of the zope lists (probably over ten 
and below twenty), i am already dismayed by the challenge of the 
typically thirty to one hundred held spam messages, bounces, and other 
effluvia i have to handle *per day*.  I do not know how many of the 
legitimate list messages would additionally be held and require more 
attention (with the current mailman implementation, it takes a lot 
more fuss to approve a held message than to discard it), but the load 
is already untenable, so one more is too many.

Why would we hold non-member postings for review?  Why not simply 
outright reject them?
Andrew

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Software Engineer
(540) 361-1700
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Re: [Zope.Com Geeks] Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Ken Manheimer
I noticed this when it went initially went by, but didn't have time to 
follow up.  The upshot is that there is absolutely no way *under the 
current arrangement* that this is going to happen.  I can see a way to 
swing it, requiring earnest volunteer effort.  Here are the details.

Being the administrator of many of the zope lists (probably over ten and 
below twenty), i am already dismayed by the challenge of the typically 
thirty to one hundred held spam messages, bounces, and other effluvia i 
have to handle *per day*.  I do not know how many of the legitimate list 
messages would additionally be held and require more attention (with the 
current mailman implementation, it takes a lot more fuss to approve a held 
message than to discard it), but the load is already untenable, so one 
more is too many.

There is an option, however.  It's possible to add moderators to lists, 
separate from list administration privileges.  I would be willing to set 
the lists to hold non-member postings, *if* there were volunteer 
moderators that would actually take care of some significant portion of 
the load - ie, i would not have to approve one non-member (alternate 
address) posting.  (I would not mind occasionally approving a 
non-member/alt-addr posting if the volunteers reduced the spam/bounce 
handling efforts in the process.)

That's the situation.  Are there people that would be willing to volunteer 
for moderation duties?  (Say which lists when you reply - and make sure to 
cc me directly, since i can't read most of the lists i moderate.)

Ken
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Andrew Sawyers wrote:
Leonardo Rochael Almeida wrote:
+1 for member-only posting
On Wed, 2004-06-16 at 22:24, Tim Peters wrote:

Over on the zope and zope-dev lists, there's currently agitation to make
them members-only mailing lists.  The point is that spam could not get 
thru
then (unless posted by a member).

What would zodb-dev members like?
[...]

+1
I propose this policy extends to all ZC managed community lists.
Andrew Sawyers

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-24 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Leonardo Rochael Almeida wrote:
+1 for member-only posting
On Wed, 2004-06-16 at 22:24, Tim Peters wrote:
 

Over on the zope and zope-dev lists, there's currently agitation to make
them members-only mailing lists.  The point is that spam could not get thru
then (unless posted by a member).
What would zodb-dev members like?
[...]
   

+1
I propose this policy extends to all ZC managed community lists.
Andrew Sawyers
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-23 Thread Leonardo Rochael Almeida
+1 for member-only posting

On Wed, 2004-06-16 at 22:24, Tim Peters wrote:
> Over on the zope and zope-dev lists, there's currently agitation to make
> them members-only mailing lists.  The point is that spam could not get thru
> then (unless posted by a member).
> 
> What would zodb-dev members like?
> [...]
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-23 Thread Mohsen Moeeni
Quoting Tim Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I'm the list admin for zodb-dev, and don't have a preference.  If you do,
> and it's strong enough to scream it, shout.  The loudest screamer will win
> .  By default, I won't change the current policy (anyone can post
> here, member or not).
> 

As the person who brough it up recently, I _have_ to scream 
for a +1 ;)

Notes:
- People can leave and enjoy their life even if the list
   is not members-only
- But it's better to do that because we receive less spams and
- Because we (wrongly) think spammers will have a harder life
   if we change to a members-only list
- So YES !

Cheers,
Mohsen,


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[Zope-dev] zope-dev list policies

2004-06-21 Thread Tim Peters
Over on the zope and zope-dev lists, there's currently agitation to make
them members-only mailing lists.  The point is that spam could not get thru
then (unless posted by a member).

What would zodb-dev members like?

Posting by a list member would not be affected, unless you attempted to send
a message from an email account other than one you subscribed with.  In the
latter case, your message would be bounced back to you.

You could worm around that by subscribing to zodb-dev with that address too,
then going to your list membership page on the web and checking the box to
suspend email delivery on that account.  Then you could post using that
account too, but wouldn't also get zodb-dev email on that account.

I'm the list admin for zodb-dev, and don't have a preference.  If you do,
and it's strong enough to scream it, shout.  The loudest screamer will win
.  By default, I won't change the current policy (anyone can post
here, member or not).



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