Re: [Zope-dev] Shared lexicons for ZCTextIndex (was: Re: [Zope-Checkins]CVS: Zope/lib/python/Products/ZCTextIndex - ZCTextIndex.py:1.32)
Casey Duncan wrote: Anyone care to weigh in with use cases for shared lexicons? Well, the use case you describe: several indexes with roughly the same lexicon is the one to watch out for. If you're going to do some quantitative tests on this, it'd be interesting. Still, KISS and all that would suggest the simpler design is better. my 2p, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Shared lexicons for ZCTextIndex (was: Re: [Zope-Checkins] CVS: Zope/lib/python/Products/ZCTextIndex - ZCTextIndex.py:1.32)
The original reason to share vocabularies was that multiple fields often came from the same human vocabulaties. The idea was that vocabularies would encompass a number of features including: - Words (or n-grams) used - Synonyms - Stemming rules - Stop words - Splitting rules There was, potentially, a lot of information to be shared and it would often be important, for consistency to share the same rules for different fields that contained the same sort of content. Sharing had as much to do with using consistent rules than it did with optimization. Unfortunately, the old text index never implemented a lot of these ideas. :( The pipe-lining model used by ZCTextIndex moves some of this functionality out of the lexicon and leaves some of these ideas unimplemented, as did TextIndex. I think that there is at least potential value in sharing lexicons. Of course, a down side is that it complicates set up. On the subject of referencing lexicons by path rather than using direct references, I'm inclined to agree that direct references are better for simplicity and speed. It's easy enough to add a new index when you want to change a lexicon. (Well, there are some complications having to do with making sure that you get all the needed data into the new index...) Jim Casey Duncan wrote: On Wednesday 14 August 2002 06:03 pm, Guido van Rossum wrote: Fix for issue #505 ZCTextIndex is now associated by path to its lexicon. After replacing a lexicon used by an index, clear the index to make it use the new lexicon. So the semantics are that when you replace the lexicon, the index is reset to empty, right? Why not create a new index instead? Then the lexicon could be internal to the index. Sharing lexicons doesn't sound like a probable use case, the more I think about it. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) I don't disagree. This was a conceptual holdover from the previous generation TextIndex. I'm switching this over to zope-dev for wider discussion: The current implementation of ZCTextIndex is like the old TextIndex in that you can create one Lexicon (the sucessor to Vocabularies) shared by multiple ZCTextIndexes. I imagine the thought was that there are only a finite number of words and that sharing the lexicon would save space and possibly index time, since a given word would only need to be inserted once into the lexicon regardless of the number of indexes it occurred in. More significant might be the (cache) memory savings of only having to keep one copy of the words in memory across several indexes. Plus fewer loads and stores to the database overall by sharing the word list. On the other hand I think query speeds may be compromised since one large lexicon would take longer to search for a given word (or words) then several smaller ones. This would be especially true for small indexes sharing a lexicon with a much larger one. The other downside (as illustrated by issue #505) is the complication of linking index to lexicon and making the link manageable so that you can tweak the indexing system easily. My fix is not entirely complete because a hard ref to the lexicon is still stored in the low-level index (to which the ZCTextIndex class delegates). In order to fix this effectively without introducing Zope dependancies at the low level (which we have looked to avoid) I would need to create some sort of Lexicon proxy that can access the correct lexicon on demand by a path efficiently. This proxy would be referenced by the low level index in place of the actual lexicon. Of course the other solution, which is much simpler is to dispense with this notion of sharing lexicons entirely and as Guido suggests, just make the lexicon part of the index. Without hard use cases to the contrary, I lean toward that simpler design. However I would like to perform some additional testing on large corpuses with many indexes to assess the memory/performance differences between these two approaches. We have already ascertained that with the new ZODB cache code in 2.6, the cache setting can have a profound affect on query performance (like a factor of 10), so I think testing would be helpful. Anyone care to weigh in with use cases for shared lexicons? -Casey ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev **
Re: [Zope-dev] Shared lexicons for ZCTextIndex (was: Re: [Zope-Checkins] CVS: Zope/lib/python/Products/ZCTextIndex - ZCTextIndex.py:1.32)
On Thursday 15 August 2002 09:21 am, Jim Fulton wrote: The original reason to share vocabularies was that multiple fields often came from the same human vocabulaties. The idea was that vocabularies would encompass a number of features including: - Words (or n-grams) used - Synonyms - Stemming rules - Stop words - Splitting rules There was, potentially, a lot of information to be shared and it would often be important, for consistency to share the same rules for different fields that contained the same sort of content. Sharing had as much to do with using consistent rules than it did with optimization. Unfortunately, the old text index never implemented a lot of these ideas. :( The pipe-lining model used by ZCTextIndex moves some of this functionality out of the lexicon and leaves some of these ideas unimplemented, as did TextIndex. I'm not sure what you mean. The pipelining is defined and executed in the lexicon. I think that there is at least potential value in sharing lexicons. Of course, a down side is that it complicates set up. I guess the main complaint was that given a set of indexes sharing a lexicon, deleting the lexicon and replacing it with another one had no effect on the indexes and in fact removes your ability to manage their lexicon at all. So you must replace all of the indexes to use the new lexicon by hand. Admittedly this is really more of a user interface and management issue then anything. Zope is just not very good at managing one to many relationships unless the one is the container of the many. 8^( On the subject of referencing lexicons by path rather than using direct references, I'm inclined to agree that direct references are better for simplicity and speed. It's easy enough to add a new index when you want to change a lexicon. (Well, there are some complications having to do with making sure that you get all the needed data into the new index...) The current fix is a compromise that does a traversal as seldom as possible. unfortunately it means it must be even more complex then either a simple direct ref or path reference would be. I'm thinking about adopting an alternative fix, which keeps the direct reference and the path to the lexicon and gives you a management interface to select a new lexicon or simply connect to a replacement (which would clear the index). It could also tell you if the lexicon used by the index is the actual one referenced from the path. I dunno though, maybe we would be better off as before and just document how you go about the replacement procedure by hand. The management interface could still be improved though, perhaps allowing you to manage the lexicon through the index in the case that the original lexicon reference was removed. Before there was no disclosure and no way to get to the deleted lexicon. -Casey ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Shared lexicons for ZCTextIndex (was: Re: [Zope-Checkins] CVS: Zope/lib/python/Products/ZCTextIndex - ZCTextIndex.py:1.32)
Casey Duncan wrote: On Thursday 15 August 2002 09:21 am, Jim Fulton wrote: ... I'm not sure what you mean. The pipelining is defined and executed in the lexicon. My mistake. I think that there is at least potential value in sharing lexicons. Of course, a down side is that it complicates set up. I guess the main complaint was that given a set of indexes sharing a lexicon, deleting the lexicon and replacing it with another one had no effect on the indexes and in fact removes your ability to manage their lexicon at all. So you must replace all of the indexes to use the new lexicon by hand. Admittedly this is really more of a user interface and management issue then anything. Zope is just not very good at managing one to many relationships unless the one is the container of the many. 8^( Maybe that's not Zope's job. Perhaps the lexicon should keep track of the indexes using it. Then, if you try to delete it, you'd at least get a warning letting you know that you may need to recreate a bunch of indexes, and telling you which ones. On the subject of referencing lexicons by path rather than using direct references, I'm inclined to agree that direct references are better for simplicity and speed. It's easy enough to add a new index when you want to change a lexicon. (Well, there are some complications having to do with making sure that you get all the needed data into the new index...) The current fix is a compromise that does a traversal as seldom as possible. unfortunately it means it must be even more complex then either a simple direct ref or path reference would be. Yup, and this brittle. I'm thinking about adopting an alternative fix, which keeps the direct reference and the path to the lexicon and gives you a management interface to select a new lexicon or simply connect to a replacement (which would clear the index). It could also tell you if the lexicon used by the index is the actual one referenced from the path. That sounds OK. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Shared lexicons for ZCTextIndex (was: Re: [Zope-Checkins] CVS: Zope/lib/python/Products/ZCTextIndex - ZCTextIndex.py:1.32)
I think that there is at least potential value in sharing lexicons. Of course, a down side is that it complicates set up. This is where I say YAGNI and announce that I'll be happy to refactor the code if and when a real need is discovered. On the subject of referencing lexicons by path rather than using direct references, I'm inclined to agree that direct references are better for simplicity and speed. It's easy enough to add a new index when you want to change a lexicon. (Well, there are some complications having to do with making sure that you get all the needed data into the new index...) What was the use case for switching lexicons in the first place? I bet it was just someone idly playing around and noticing that it didn't work right... --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Shared lexicons for ZCTextIndex (was: Re: [Zope-Checkins] CVS: Zope/lib/python/Products/ZCTextIndex - ZCTextIndex.py:1.32)
I guess the main complaint was that given a set of indexes sharing a lexicon, deleting the lexicon and replacing it with another one had no effect on the indexes and in fact removes your ability to manage their lexicon at all. So you must replace all of the indexes to use the new lexicon by hand. What ability to manage the lexicon are you talking about? The lexicon has nothing manageable once it's created, except its name. :-) IMO we should remove the external Lexicon from ZCTextIndex and let ZCTextIndex create the Lexicon for you. That means that the pipeline options need to be selected when you create a ZCTextIndex -- this is actually simpler because it's now one-stop shopping (except for the need to still create a ZCatalog). --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
