Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3 Newbie Feedback
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 And btw.: "Zope 3" is dead There is only the ZTK and Bluebream as ZTK-based application server. - -aj Christopher Lozinski wrote: > First of all my compliments to all of the people who put in enormous > amounts of work first figuring out how to build Zope 3, and then > building it. I am most grateful I hope that these comments help you > better understand your market. > > I should say that I have been using Zope 2 since 1999 and watching Zope > 3 for the longest time. I just could not get it. Python is cool, but > interfaces, adaptors, zcml etc just made my eyes glaze over. I now > understand why all that was necessary, but it was off putting. I > finally have an app I need to write, but the complexity quite delayed my > working with Zope 3. What is needed is a simple model to get people > hooked. > > So how to make Blue Bream easier to use? I propose making the initial > start up interface a simple content management system, kind of a Plone > light. We all know there is way too much stuff under the hood of > Plone. It slows software evolution. In contrast I know that Zope 3 is > easy to evolve, just getting started is hard. So everyone starts in > Plone, but never migrates to Zope 3. So a simple content management > system out of the box would make it very easy to get started in Blue > Bream. Then users could grow into the system. > > I know Plone just had a new release . I am not sure what all is in it, > but it would be great if Zope 3 on startup looked just like Plone, as > far as possible. Right out of the box allow users to register > themselves, and add in the stock content types. Calendar item, news > item, things like that, not the developer centric ZPT and DTML file. > Also allow the developer stuff, but under a different branch of a > hierarchical menu system.Maybe only people with a developer or > manager permission see those kinds of items. > > There are three parts to a simple content management system. First, a > way to generate new content types, and second some dtml or page > templates to display them. Finally some examples would also be useful. > > So the critical thing I need is a way to put up custom content types > using a web interface to build the schema. Maybe I could even add a few > python scripts. And click on some options that usually go in an zcml > file. That would make it super fast to put up a custom content type. > That would make for a very easy entry for someone like myself into > building a new BlueBream application. > > Then I need to add some DTML or page templates to display those content > types. I can already do that right through the web. > > Finally a few existing content types like calendar item, link, and > article would provide for great examples if anyone wanted to modify or > copy them. They could be implemented through the web as examples or > base classes to be inherited or modified. > > That would be an awesome demo. A real simple way to get started in Zope > 3. A simple abstraction that would make it accessible to those stupider > developers like myself. And everyone else out there. Once hooked, > over time we could dig deeper. > > That is all I want. A simple content management system out of the box, > make it easy to add my own content type. Sure the serious hackers can > throw all that out, but for the average end user/developer, that would > be a hugely tempting improvement over using Plone. If I can add a few > dtml pages to display my content, it would all be very easy to get > started. Later I could export to the file system, and svn. > > But that is not what I currently get. Instead, in my case, we will go > with the system admin manually adding users for a while. And I have to > learn how to write an interface file, which is way way more difficult > than just using a web form to define one. The web form, lays out my > choices, and only allows for legal schema definitions. Much better. > > Okay, so much for my wish list. Here are some more specific comments. > > Thank you for providing the user interface. Registration is quite > confusing. First I create something, then I have to register it. > Hello, if I created it, then just go ahead and register it for me. Take > a ZPT page. I am a zope 2 developer. I know what that is. Then they > ask me to register it. Took a while to figure out what that means. I > still have no idea what all those options for interfaces are. If you > have to have all those choices there, just label one default for me. It > can't be that hard. Maybe register one by default, and provide the > option to change it. Make the page say clearly that something has been > registered. And have a clear link to the help page for choosing an > interface to register. Or should I say change to. > > Then I cannot add a python script through the user interface. What > happened to that stuff? Are python s
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3 Newbie Feedback
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 hm...yet another try getting out of your ZClass-based legacy apps? Why don't you look at something easier like Grok or repoze.bfg for writing your stuff...or choose an existing CMS solution like LFC (also based on Python but Django). I am always under the impression that you are trying to use a complex technology without being interested or capable to diving into the depth of the framework. - -aj Christopher Lozinski wrote: > First of all my compliments to all of the people who put in enormous > amounts of work first figuring out how to build Zope 3, and then > building it. I am most grateful I hope that these comments help you > better understand your market. > > I should say that I have been using Zope 2 since 1999 and watching Zope > 3 for the longest time. I just could not get it. Python is cool, but > interfaces, adaptors, zcml etc just made my eyes glaze over. I now > understand why all that was necessary, but it was off putting. I > finally have an app I need to write, but the complexity quite delayed my > working with Zope 3. What is needed is a simple model to get people > hooked. > > So how to make Blue Bream easier to use? I propose making the initial > start up interface a simple content management system, kind of a Plone > light. We all know there is way too much stuff under the hood of > Plone. It slows software evolution. In contrast I know that Zope 3 is > easy to evolve, just getting started is hard. So everyone starts in > Plone, but never migrates to Zope 3. So a simple content management > system out of the box would make it very easy to get started in Blue > Bream. Then users could grow into the system. > > I know Plone just had a new release . I am not sure what all is in it, > but it would be great if Zope 3 on startup looked just like Plone, as > far as possible. Right out of the box allow users to register > themselves, and add in the stock content types. Calendar item, news > item, things like that, not the developer centric ZPT and DTML file. > Also allow the developer stuff, but under a different branch of a > hierarchical menu system.Maybe only people with a developer or > manager permission see those kinds of items. > > There are three parts to a simple content management system. First, a > way to generate new content types, and second some dtml or page > templates to display them. Finally some examples would also be useful. > > So the critical thing I need is a way to put up custom content types > using a web interface to build the schema. Maybe I could even add a few > python scripts. And click on some options that usually go in an zcml > file. That would make it super fast to put up a custom content type. > That would make for a very easy entry for someone like myself into > building a new BlueBream application. > > Then I need to add some DTML or page templates to display those content > types. I can already do that right through the web. > > Finally a few existing content types like calendar item, link, and > article would provide for great examples if anyone wanted to modify or > copy them. They could be implemented through the web as examples or > base classes to be inherited or modified. > > That would be an awesome demo. A real simple way to get started in Zope > 3. A simple abstraction that would make it accessible to those stupider > developers like myself. And everyone else out there. Once hooked, > over time we could dig deeper. > > That is all I want. A simple content management system out of the box, > make it easy to add my own content type. Sure the serious hackers can > throw all that out, but for the average end user/developer, that would > be a hugely tempting improvement over using Plone. If I can add a few > dtml pages to display my content, it would all be very easy to get > started. Later I could export to the file system, and svn. > > But that is not what I currently get. Instead, in my case, we will go > with the system admin manually adding users for a while. And I have to > learn how to write an interface file, which is way way more difficult > than just using a web form to define one. The web form, lays out my > choices, and only allows for legal schema definitions. Much better. > > Okay, so much for my wish list. Here are some more specific comments. > > Thank you for providing the user interface. Registration is quite > confusing. First I create something, then I have to register it. > Hello, if I created it, then just go ahead and register it for me. Take > a ZPT page. I am a zope 2 developer. I know what that is. Then they > ask me to register it. Took a while to figure out what that means. I > still have no idea what all those options for interfaces are. If you > have to have all those choices there, just label one default for me. It > can't be that hard. Maybe register one by default, and provide the > option to
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3 Newbie Feedback
Hi, So how to make Blue Bream easier to use? I propose making the initial > start up interface a simple content management system, kind of a Plone > light. This seems like a bad idea. Blue Bream attempts to be a development framework, not a content management system. You are suggesting we make an apple look like an orange, but still taste like an apple. Perhaps someone will build a CMS on top of Blue Bream, and perhaps this will make BB easier for people to learn, but that would need to be a separate project with separate goals. The experience from Zope 2 and Plone is that muddying the waters between an application and a framework makes a system harder for people to understand and use, not easier. > I know Plone just had a new release . I am not sure what all is in it, > but it would be great if Zope 3 on startup looked just like Plone, as > far as possible. Right out of the box allow users to register > themselves, and add in the stock content types. Calendar item, news > item, things like that, not the developer centric ZPT and DTML file. > Also allow the developer stuff, but under a different branch of a > hierarchical menu system.Maybe only people with a developer or > manager permission see those kinds of items. > It sounds like you're talking about through-the-web development, which is an idea now thoroughly discredited. TTW customisation has its place. Writing code through a web browser is just painful and brings long term pain once you grow out of tinkering mode and start having to worry about things like deployment and dev/test/prod lifecycles. > That is all I want. A simple content management system out of the box, > make it easy to add my own content type. Sure the serious hackers can > throw all that out, but for the average end user/developer, that would > be a hugely tempting improvement over using Plone. If you just want a simple CMS, I suggest you install a CMS. With Dexterity, by the way (available in Plone 4, probably standard in Plone 5), you can legitimately create content types through the web in Plone. > If I can add a few > dtml pages to display my content, it would all be very easy to get > started. Later I could export to the file system, and svn. > Please note that DTML is a dead (and horrid) technology. Martin ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
