Re: [Zope] linuxworld article
Chris Withers wrote: > > Graham Chiu wrote: > > The author creates a straw man ( a shoe shop built upon a shoe object ) > > without mentioning that Zope users can use a relational database instead > > to build their store. > > I think that's a Zope Documentation problem ;-) Not when you can see that in plain english from no more than two clicks off of Zope's homepage. The level of difficulty or the complexity to do it is irrelevant, since that wasn't the issue. The author's gripe (in this case) was that Zope is sooo OOP, and that Zope docs don't explain OO concepts to users. The fact that Zope can talk to RDMSes was conveniently left out, and the fact that you can do so is not hidden in any way on zope.org. It is right there in plain sight, two clicks from the main page. How can that be a Zope Documentation Problem (ZDP?, oops,that's taken ;-) ) Bill -- Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are easy to annoy, and have the root password. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] linuxworld article
George Donnelly wrote: > i thought oss was supposed to be different ... ? >:-/ Yes, but that doesn't mean it should be a pain in the ass to use and learn ;-) cheers, Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] linuxworld article
as a newbie i am kind of glad that there are no slick interfaces. i want to learn. i dont need to be coddled. :-) is it important for zope to be "big" like MS and oracle? [lets think about that for a second; do you really want to say that zope should be like MS or MS products? yeah MS has some good points, but ...] or high-quality, open, "home-grown", *real* ...? i thought oss was supposed to be different ... ? >:-/ Regards, GEORGE DONNELLY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://cyklotron.com/ The longer I live the more beautiful life becomes. --Frank Lloyd Wright >... However, for new users it could be disappointed. > The interface does not look slick and does not offer interesting looking > wizards that invite to click on. I think it should ! The first acquaintance > with Zope should be a joy ! A new world opening up, a world where everything > seems to be possible ! ;-) > Maybe a bit commercial thinking, but hey, thats what made Microsoft and > Oracle big. Not by delivering but simply by promising... At least Zope > delivers, so what we need is showing the world it does. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] linuxworld article
Graham Chiu wrote: > The author creates a straw man ( a shoe shop built upon a shoe object ) > without mentioning that Zope users can use a relational database instead > to build their store. I think that's a Zope Documentation problem ;-) > And he is not aware of the way that many here use editors with FTP > capabilities to interact with Zope. ( though FTP doesn't work in many > situations ). FTP support is not good enough to use for total site development. It's also not at a high enough level for content managers as I'm currently finding. > Far from being torture "Expecting someone to code in a browser text box > is considered a human-rights violation in most civilized nations" the > small text browser box encourages code to be factored. Sorry, that's simply not true ;-) Text boxes are pathetic for editing. Find and replace? That said, DTML is probably more of a human rights violation right now... I think Zope Studio will address a lot of the aboev problems, but I can't help feeling a pluggin type thing for Dreamweaver would be of great benefit too :-) >From the content managers point of view I think it's all about consistency of interface and ease of use... the two reasons I still use WinNT on my desktop instead of LINUX ;-) cheers, Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] linuxworld article
Gijs Reulen wrote: > I also think that interfacing with stuff like Dreamweaver is very important. Totally agree... What about Dreamweaver UltraDev? It has support for Coldfusion and various other similar offerings but not Zope. I'd say that's pretty important to sort out... That said, Zoep Studio may be very promising :-) > I think this kind of end-user > thinking is what Open Source really lacks compared to commercial software. Again, too true :( Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] linuxworld article
> Well Gijs, you've got some points right in what you're saying BUT... > If you know some HTML and Stylesheets why don't you revamp the > interface yourself. I have. I was not talking of myself. I do not care much anymore for the visual aspect of the interface. However, for new users it could be disappointed. The interface does not look slick and does not offer interesting looking wizards that invite to click on. I think it should ! The first acquaintance with Zope should be a joy ! A new world opening up, a world where everything seems to be possible ! ;-) Maybe a bit commercial thinking, but hey, thats what made Microsoft and Oracle big. Not by delivering but simply by promising... At least Zope delivers, so what we need is showing the world it does. I also think that interfacing with stuff like Dreamweaver is very important. People use that a lot and therefore are familiar with it. Zope would then be just another back-end like Lasso (the normal Dreamweaver database connection stuff). Maybe when installing Zope, it should offer to automatically set up connections for databases ? Something like: which database do have ? Select one of more [odbc, Oracle, mySQL, etc. ]. I think this kind of end-user thinking is what Open Source really lacks compared to commercial software. Yes, I know, all this is easy to think of but it also has to be realised -( Unfortunately thats where my personal abilities are lacking... Gijs Reulen ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] linuxworld article
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Firestar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-07/lw-07-penguin_2.html > >Hmm...what is your opinion on the article above? I'm interested to see the >author's comparison btwn Enhydra and Zope. The author creates a straw man ( a shoe shop built upon a shoe object ) without mentioning that Zope users can use a relational database instead to build their store. And he is not aware of the way that many here use editors with FTP capabilities to interact with Zope. ( though FTP doesn't work in many situations ). Far from being torture "Expecting someone to code in a browser text box is considered a human-rights violation in most civilized nations" the small text browser box encourages code to be factored. -- Regards, Graham Chiu gchiucompkarori.co.nz http://www.compkarori.co.nz/index.php Powered by Interbase and Zope ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] linuxworld article
Hi I think the author is right about the interface of Zope. Take a look at what Enhydra has to offer: http://www.enhydra.org/software/ScreenShots.html What the author especially is missing in Zope is something line Enhydra DODS (Data Object Design Studio), an grafical interactive way to combine objects and relational data. And 'coming soon' an interactive app-builder... Zope Studio depends on Mozilla, but how long will that all take to complete ? Besides laking a slick interface, Zope is missing the real interactivity Enhydra can offer; Java apps on the server and on the client can communicate directly and therefore make a lot more visually possible in terms of administration, debugging, etc. A solution ? Has anyone at Digital Creations yet taken a look at Beehive's MetaPublisher ? I think that is the way to go for the short term (Studio being long term) ! Nice looking browser interface, combining data and databases, wizards, etc. Python and Zope has momentum NOW, but if we fail to deliver at least some of the features other platforms have (and the number will increase; for example with Borland Delphi comming to Linux, so will WebHUB, a webplatform for Delphi !) new users will be disappointed and go somewhere else. Zope deserves better then being a temporary hype :-( > http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-07/lw-07-penguin_2.html > > Hmm...what is your opinion on the article above? I'm interested to see the > author's comparison btwn Enhydra and Zope. > > regards, > firestar > > > __ > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com > Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup > > > ___ > Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > > ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
