Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
1) for the record, lapaye.fr is a (profitable) software editor that has been building business applications on the top of Zope 2 for 5 years (payroll software, not plone or whatever). We don't intend to switch to another platform in the foreseeable future [we're zope2.9 right now]. Python programmers aren't in short supply, and Zope can be taught to a Python programmer in a few weeks if we need to do that by ourselves. If Zope 2 doesn't change much, that's perfectly fine with me (except that I want my refresh back). 2) We never went to Zope 3 because nobody was able to demonstrate a convincing advantage over zope 2 3) Chris, I'm not sure about your point. Nobody starts a new application in COBOL nowadays, but it's one of the most solid area you can go for money, and I'm pretty sure it'll be the same 25 years from now. Regards. PS: 4) we're happy with xlwt too ! On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Chris Withers wrote: > Aleksey Tsalolikhin wrote: > > Hi. FYI, I have a client using Zope 2 in production. I am migrating > > him from Zope 2.7 on SUSE 10.1 to Zope 2.10 on CentOS 5.2. > > > > He's not using plone. He has a custom Web app. He expects to keep > > using Zope 2, and to continue development of our Web application. > > Yes, and there are many people in similar situations, but they're not > new users coming to "Zope 2" ;-) > > Chris > > -- > Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting >- http://www.simplistix.co.uk > ___ > Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
Aleksey Tsalolikhin wrote: > Hi. FYI, I have a client using Zope 2 in production. I am migrating > him from Zope 2.7 on SUSE 10.1 to Zope 2.10 on CentOS 5.2. > > He's not using plone. He has a custom Web app. He expects to keep > using Zope 2, and to continue development of our Web application. Yes, and there are many people in similar situations, but they're not new users coming to "Zope 2" ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 08:55, Dieter Maurer wrote: > With my current experience, the Zope 3 way to handle skins is considerably > more > work then the previous CMF skinning. True, you have a separate namespace > for views and thus avoid name clashes in edge cases -- but is this > really worth the extra effort? Yes, without any doubt whatsoever. And when it comes to effort, you have a point. Zope 3 in itself is too fragmented, too low level and too XML-y. Grok solves that. Zope 3 was also too big and monolithic. The eggification process solved that (and made Zope3 pointless as an application server, and it became a toolkit/framework). And some central parts of Zope 3, in particular the publisher, are too complex. Repoze and Repoze.bfg solved that. That means that for most cases, except when you need Zope 2 compatibility, The Thing That Once Was Known as Zope 3 are now finally ready. Obviously there is not much point in porting projects, but if you start a new project, the extra work of learning Grok or repoze.BFG could very well be worth the effort. I love Zope 2 as well, although I forget sometimes, since I never work with Zope 2, I work with Plone. Which I don't love (but Plone 4 looks like I will love it again). But with the Zope Toolkit I can do everything I want to do with Zope 2, with less code and less magic handwaving, and less (un)expected problems. We who know Zope 2 can develop in it easily and without problems. But it WAS a pain to get to that point. Zope 3 had a completely different set of pains. IMO, Grok has a much lesser pain level. Yes, Zope 3 did kill off a lot of interest in Zope 2, and was a contributing factor to the fact that Zope 2 doesn't attract new developers. But it wasn't the only one. It was already losing mindshare because it was too painful to use, and Python people didn't like it. People went from Zope to Python, not the other way around. With a time machine, much could have been done differently. But it's too late now. Time has ran away from Zope 2, Zope 3 never took off. It's time to take the experiences and the vast codebase, and move forward. And I guess Zope Toolkit, Grok and BFG is that way forward. -- Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
Tim Nash wrote at 2009-4-5 14:05 -0700: >Also, I have been critical of the zope 3 line because I love zope 2 >and it appears to me that zope 3 is killing zope 2. I share your feeling. With my current experience, the Zope 3 way to handle skins is considerably more work then the previous CMF skinning. True, you have a separate namespace for views and thus avoid name clashes in edge cases -- but is this really worth the extra effort? -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
Looks like gmail won't append a sig to a draft email. Anyway here is my sig. -- Tim Nash Lead Developer http://www.sanmateowaveforms.com Zope/Plone: distribute your web applications as desktop applications. Installs on mac and windows with one click. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
Thanks for this post Jürgen. You made me think of my agenda. My agenda is to promote Zope/Plone as a great way to create web applications that you also want to distribute as desktop applications. I have posted about this a long time ago but there is no reason for anyone on this list to remember, especially if this feature of zope/plone is of no interest to them. So from now on I am going include it in my sig. Also, I have been critical of the zope 3 line because I love zope 2 and it appears to me that zope 3 is killing zope 2. I'd rather not be an enemy of the zope 3 team. Grok is great but I cannot distribute grok applications to most users. However, If somebody made it possible to run django or jinga2 templates in zope 3 I would be back into Phillip's book in a flash. The reason is because I think zope is a lot more like the google app engine's back end (called big table) than a relational database is. App engine uses django templates and there is currently no way to migrate applications off app engine. Seems like an opportunity for someone who really knows zope well. Zope/Plone is still the best way to get a full stack (webserver - business layer - database) on a users desktop. It installs on mac and windows with one click. It is etter than LAMP or Adobe AIR. Please recommend plone to newbies and casual zope developers. Thanks! On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Jürgen Herrmann wrote: > On Fri, April 3, 2009 21:18, Aleksey Tsalolikhin wrote: >> Hi. FYI, I have a client using Zope 2 in production. I am migrating >> him from Zope 2.7 on SUSE 10.1 to Zope 2.10 on CentOS 5.2. >> >> He's not using plone. He has a custom Web app. He expects to keep >> using Zope 2, and to continue development of our Web application. >> > > hi there. i think it's important for you guys to let you know that > xlhost.de is also run completely on a zope backend. we use 100% zodb > for all business objects. we were able to jump from release to release > starting back then at 2.6 and now latest 2.10 is running since a few > days. there were two products that actually broke during this time > when moving to a new major zope 2 version: > > - localfs, as discussed which needed a few minor tweaks to keep it > running. i did them myself, primarily because i wanted to keep > going on immediately and i didn't want to look or even wait for > a fixed version. it wasn't rocket science to make those corrections > to the code, so no maintenance nightmare in sight here. > > - unrestricted pagetemplates, i had to come up with my own solution > here, because it broke when moving to 2.8 and had some patches on > board that deeply relied on 2.7 interna, as far as i remember. > work needed was ~2h, so nothing to worry about either. > > otherwise the upgrades were always pretty smooth, i like the "big > monolythic tarball release" very much, as the upgrade process is > very straightforward: download, unpack, build, install. > in cannot see this "maintenance nightmare" asf. that certain people > on this list proclaim to exist regarding zope2. > > as long as all those zope3-ish stuff and it's docs (if they really > exist) is so scattered across million places, all that stuff is > pretty unattractive to "old school" zope users like myself, that > have to keep a business running based on zope2. > > would i have to choose a appserver/db/whatever again for my backend, > i'd go for something else, but not zope anymore. > reason? well just look at zope.org, enough said. not even a basic > version of a new page has made it to life yet - reasons therefor? > i don't know. i've been following zope and zope-dev mls for quite > some time and over time the tone spoken here has not improved, > rather the opposite is true. this is quite contrary to a few other > devel mls i'm on! > > please don't get me wrong, i don't want to piss anybody off here. > i'm quite happy to have zope running, and it's running very fine > indeed. i can help myself out with almost all problems nowadays, > but i have people in mind that are new to zope and want to try > it. and if i try to "feel" the situation these folks are in, i'd > probably not choose zope for various reasons. seems like more and > more things are dying in the zope world :( > > the only thing i can try to suggest for real improvement is: > get things going. try them. don't kill good ideas by bad > discussion right from the start. think positive. :) > > otherwise the zope community will never grow again. everybody > can decide for himself it community growth is a good thing for > him or not. i think some people are of the latter kind :/ > > just my two cents, it was time to speak up. in no way did i mean > to insult anybody personally here, just in case... > > best regards and keep up the good work! > > jürgen herrmann > -- >>> XLhost.de - eXperts in Linux hosting ® << > > XLhost.de GmbH > Jürgen Herrmann, Geschäftsführer > Boelckestrasse 21, 93051 Regensburg, Germany > > Geschäftsführer: Volker
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
On Fri, April 3, 2009 21:18, Aleksey Tsalolikhin wrote: > Hi. FYI, I have a client using Zope 2 in production. I am migrating > him from Zope 2.7 on SUSE 10.1 to Zope 2.10 on CentOS 5.2. > > He's not using plone. He has a custom Web app. He expects to keep > using Zope 2, and to continue development of our Web application. > hi there. i think it's important for you guys to let you know that xlhost.de is also run completely on a zope backend. we use 100% zodb for all business objects. we were able to jump from release to release starting back then at 2.6 and now latest 2.10 is running since a few days. there were two products that actually broke during this time when moving to a new major zope 2 version: - localfs, as discussed which needed a few minor tweaks to keep it running. i did them myself, primarily because i wanted to keep going on immediately and i didn't want to look or even wait for a fixed version. it wasn't rocket science to make those corrections to the code, so no maintenance nightmare in sight here. - unrestricted pagetemplates, i had to come up with my own solution here, because it broke when moving to 2.8 and had some patches on board that deeply relied on 2.7 interna, as far as i remember. work needed was ~2h, so nothing to worry about either. otherwise the upgrades were always pretty smooth, i like the "big monolythic tarball release" very much, as the upgrade process is very straightforward: download, unpack, build, install. in cannot see this "maintenance nightmare" asf. that certain people on this list proclaim to exist regarding zope2. as long as all those zope3-ish stuff and it's docs (if they really exist) is so scattered across million places, all that stuff is pretty unattractive to "old school" zope users like myself, that have to keep a business running based on zope2. would i have to choose a appserver/db/whatever again for my backend, i'd go for something else, but not zope anymore. reason? well just look at zope.org, enough said. not even a basic version of a new page has made it to life yet - reasons therefor? i don't know. i've been following zope and zope-dev mls for quite some time and over time the tone spoken here has not improved, rather the opposite is true. this is quite contrary to a few other devel mls i'm on! please don't get me wrong, i don't want to piss anybody off here. i'm quite happy to have zope running, and it's running very fine indeed. i can help myself out with almost all problems nowadays, but i have people in mind that are new to zope and want to try it. and if i try to "feel" the situation these folks are in, i'd probably not choose zope for various reasons. seems like more and more things are dying in the zope world :( the only thing i can try to suggest for real improvement is: get things going. try them. don't kill good ideas by bad discussion right from the start. think positive. :) otherwise the zope community will never grow again. everybody can decide for himself it community growth is a good thing for him or not. i think some people are of the latter kind :/ just my two cents, it was time to speak up. in no way did i mean to insult anybody personally here, just in case... best regards and keep up the good work! jürgen herrmann -- >> XLhost.de - eXperts in Linux hosting ® << XLhost.de GmbH Jürgen Herrmann, Geschäftsführer Boelckestrasse 21, 93051 Regensburg, Germany Geschäftsführer: Volker Geith, Jürgen Herrmann Registriert unter: HRB9918 Umsatzsteuer-Identifikationsnummer: DE245931218 Fon: +49 (0)700 XLHOSTDE [0700 95467833] Fax: +49 (0)700 XLHOSTDE [0700 95467833] WEB: http://www.XLhost.de IRC: #xlh...@irc.quakenet.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
Hi. FYI, I have a client using Zope 2 in production. I am migrating him from Zope 2.7 on SUSE 10.1 to Zope 2.10 on CentOS 5.2. He's not using plone. He has a custom Web app. He expects to keep using Zope 2, and to continue development of our Web application. Best, Aleksey Tsalolikhin Unix system administrator http://www.verticalsysadmin.com/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
Tim Nash wrote: >>> *This* community is dead, get over it and move on. > > Yeah, you are right. > > If you really think zope 3 (or 4) can stand on it's own, "zope 3 app server" has a small community of users who've indicated they're not wedded to that brand continuing. "the zope framework" is already in existence (no 4 release though!) and contains packages used by "zope 3 app server", "zope 2 app server", plone, repoze, grok and even twisted. > just rename > zope 2 to 'plone base'. That will cut down on the confusion. The fact that I don't think that's the case is why I haven't suggested that in the "Zope 4.0" thread... > But beware, unless you can make zope 4 more appealling to a wider > group of casual developers it will be reduced to little more than a > well regarded library. That has already happened I'm afraid... > Not anything an IT manager is in a hurry to > bring in-house. I don't know any IT manager rushing to bring "Zope" in any shape or form in-house... > You may want to take a good look at how much money you > actually make on zope 3 consulting before you kill zope 2. I'm sure most of the people who make money from "zope" do so by selling solutions, not product or the "zope" brand. As such, if I put my business hat on, I'd be looking to Django, Pylons, Plone for consulting opportunities based on "brand" ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
2009/4/2 Tim Nash : > If you really think zope 3 (or 4) can stand on it's own, just rename > zope 2 to 'plone base'. That will cut down on the confusion. There are many more that uses Zope 2 besides Plone. But it is true, and also likely A Good Thing that Zope 2 doesn't get many new users nowadays except via Plone. The effort of slowly moving Plone more and more onto Zope 3 is therefore very important. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RIP Zope 2!
> > *This* community is dead, get over it and move on. Yeah, you are right. If you really think zope 3 (or 4) can stand on it's own, just rename zope 2 to 'plone base'. That will cut down on the confusion. But beware, unless you can make zope 4 more appealling to a wider group of casual developers it will be reduced to little more than a well regarded library. Not anything an IT manager is in a hurry to bring in-house. You may want to take a good look at how much money you actually make on zope 3 consulting before you kill zope 2. Good luck and thanks for all the contributions. -Tim ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
