Thanks for this post Jürgen.  You made me think of my agenda. My
agenda is to promote Zope/Plone as a great way to create web
applications that you also want to distribute as desktop applications.
I have posted about this a long time ago but there is no reason for
anyone on this list to remember, especially if this feature of
zope/plone is of no interest to them. So from now on I am going
include it in my sig.

Also, I have been critical of the zope 3 line because I love zope 2
and it appears to me that zope 3 is killing zope 2. I'd rather not be
an enemy of the zope 3 team. Grok is great but I cannot distribute
grok applications to most users. However, If somebody made it possible
to run django or jinga2 templates in zope 3 I would be back into
Phillip's book in a flash. The reason is because I think zope is a lot
more like the google app engine's back end (called big table) than a
relational database is. App engine uses django templates and there is
currently no way to migrate applications off app engine. Seems like an
opportunity for someone who really knows zope well.

Zope/Plone is still the best way to get a full stack (webserver -
business layer - database) on a users desktop. It installs on mac and
windows with one click. It is etter than LAMP or Adobe AIR. Please
recommend plone to newbies and casual zope developers.


On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Jürgen Herrmann
<> wrote:
> On Fri, April 3, 2009 21:18, Aleksey Tsalolikhin wrote:
>> Hi.  FYI, I have a client using Zope 2 in production.   I am migrating
>> him from Zope 2.7 on SUSE 10.1 to Zope 2.10 on CentOS 5.2.
>> He's not using plone.  He has a custom Web app.  He expects to keep
>> using Zope 2, and to continue development of our Web application.
> hi there. i think it's important for you guys to let you know that
> is also run completely on a zope backend. we use 100% zodb
> for all business objects. we were able to jump from release to release
> starting back then at 2.6 and now latest 2.10 is running since a few
> days. there were two products that actually broke during this time
> when moving to a new major zope 2 version:
>  - localfs, as discussed which needed a few minor tweaks to keep it
>   running. i did them myself, primarily because i wanted to keep
>   going on immediately and i didn't want to look or even wait for
>   a fixed version. it wasn't rocket science to make those corrections
>   to the code, so no maintenance nightmare in sight here.
>  - unrestricted pagetemplates, i had to come up with my own solution
>   here, because it broke when moving to 2.8 and had some patches on
>   board that deeply relied on 2.7 interna, as far as i remember.
>   work needed was ~2h, so nothing to worry about either.
> otherwise the upgrades were always pretty smooth, i like the "big
> monolythic tarball release" very much, as the upgrade process is
> very straightforward: download, unpack, build, install.
> in cannot see this "maintenance nightmare" asf. that certain people
> on this list proclaim to exist regarding zope2.
> as long as all those zope3-ish stuff and it's docs (if they really
> exist) is so scattered across million places, all that stuff is
> pretty unattractive to "old school" zope users like myself, that
> have to keep a business running based on zope2.
> would i have to choose a appserver/db/whatever again for my backend,
> i'd go for something else, but not zope anymore.
> reason? well just look at, enough said. not even a basic
> version of a new page has made it to life yet - reasons therefor?
> i don't know. i've been following zope and zope-dev mls for quite
> some time and over time the tone spoken here has not improved,
> rather the opposite is true. this is quite contrary to a few other
> devel mls i'm on!
> please don't get me wrong, i don't want to piss anybody off here.
> i'm quite happy to have zope running, and it's running very fine
> indeed. i can help myself out with almost all problems nowadays,
> but i have people in mind that are new to zope and want to try
> it. and if i try to "feel" the situation these folks are in, i'd
> probably not choose zope for various reasons. seems like more and
> more things are dying in the zope world :(
> the only thing i can try to suggest for real improvement is:
> get things going. try them. don't kill good ideas by bad
> discussion right from the start. think positive. :)
> otherwise the zope community will never grow again. everybody
> can decide for himself it community growth is a good thing for
> him or not. i think some people are of the latter kind :/
> just my two cents, it was time to speak up. in no way did i mean
> to insult anybody personally here, just in case...
> best regards and keep up the good work!
> jürgen herrmann
> --
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