I would argue that a given triple can naturally show up in many different context---on the page associated with its subject, on the page associated with its object, and on a variety of pages representing the results of queries that involve that triple. And we might as let people edit that triple _wherever_ they encounter it. Why should a triple have to have a single "home" page where it can be edited? And what does it mean to edit a triple anyway? Pretty much all you can do with a triple is create one or delete one. It seems no big deal to let someone create a triple while they are editing any page. Presumably they will _usually_ create a triple having to do with the subject of the page, but as in the example that started all this, they may be prompted to create a bunch of "supporting" triples that go with but are not exactly bound to the page subject. Conversely, if a triple shows up in any page, there should be a way for a user to delete it---this seems doable, by having the wiki compare the original text to the edited text, identify triples that are no longer present, and remove them from the triple store.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > (sorry for multiple copies - honestly this thread has too many To: and > Cc: to understand ....) > > While I personally like the page-centric approach of SemMediaWiki, I > always believed that an additional feature allowing a free flow of > triples would be convenient. > However, these should be, IMHO, confined in pages without subject, or > with multiple subject. > > To attempt a parallel with the 'unplugged' wiki, there are > 'encyclopedic' pages on specific subjects like [[Edgar Varese]], and > 'flow of thought' pages like [[Influence of Varese music in Frank Zappa > production]] without a clear subject. > > In the latter case, I would like to see a straight implementation of N3, > instead of strange wiki-syntax deviations. Maybe something in the > style suggested by > http://www.wikisophia.org/wiki/Wikitex. > > Andrea > > > Daniel Schwabe ha scritto: > >> It seems to me that some of the variance in views here regards what each >> one understands as a "wiki", in this context. >> Suppose we consider it, as, loosely speaking, a tool for the collective >> production and editing of knowledge, by technically untrained people. To >> some, this knowledge as being represented as triples. Others view it as >> being represented in the text itself (hence, not really processable), >> and still others may see it as a combination of both. >> The first alternative does not really look like a wiki as most people >> would think of it; I suspect the third one is the more common >> understanding of what a "semantic wiki" would be. >> (Btw, I don't see such an advantage to regard a wiki as simply a "text >> based" interface to directly edit RDF or OWL ontologies... but this is >> another discussion perhaps). >> I can't see how to analize advantages/disadvantages of any of the >> alternatives before it is clear which paradigm is being followed, If you >> take the first point of view, I'd tend to agree with Mark's remarks. If >> you take the third point of view, it is not so clear... >> This is essentially why I asked Mike to make the usage scenarios a bit >> more explicit; I'd like to understand better how is the formal (i.e. >> triples) knowledge is being created, edited AND USED in the first and >> third alternatives above. >> So, in summary, what is (more precisely) the problem being addressed in >> using the wiki? >> >> On 26/4/2007 19:39, Mark Greaves wrote: >> >>> Mike, >>> >>> >>> >>>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be >>>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want >>>> to see it. I want the tool to take care of all that for me. >>>> >>>> >>> I disagree with this. In order for triples to enjoy the benefits of >>> social editing and the social identification and correction of errors, >>> they have to be simple to find, examine, and edit by a large number of >>> relatively untrained people. In order to maximize the number of people >>> who can access/edit the triples, the process of locating and editing the >>> triples needs to be as parallel as possible to the already-known process >>> for making corrections to ordinary wikitext. So, rather than force >>> triple-editing to go through some kind of searchbox interface, it makes >>> more sense to me to make the triples embed in the wikitext of the >>> subject page. Furthermore, this strategy allows for a natural way of >>> using associated wikitext to lay out arguments, in case there is dispute >>> over the value of a triple. >>> >>> This does make the kind of freeform triple entry you desire a bit more >>> cumbersome. Nevertheless, I think it is consistent with the goal of >>> making the triples that exist as accessible as possible to the wiki >>> editors. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> Mark Greaves >>> Vulcan Inc. >>> 505 Fifth Ave S, Suite 900 >>> Seattle, WA 98104 >>> >>> (206) 342-2276 (voice) >>> (206) 342-3276 (fax) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Blanchard, Duane L [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:10 AM >>>> To: Uschold, Michael F; Daniel Schwabe >>>> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Kelly Jones; Jones, David H; >>>> semediawiki-user@lists.sourceforge.net; Murray, William R; >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mark Greaves; >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Subject: RE: Creating Triples Anywhere in a Semantic Wiki '' >>>> >>>> See additional inline comments.... >>>> >>>> Thx, >>>> >>>> D >>>> >>>> ---- >>>> Duane L. Blanchard >>>> Computational Linguist >>>> Phantom Works - Mathematics & Computing Technology >>>> 425.373.2800 >>>> >>>> To pick up on this topic, Mike, could you clarify then what >>>> you have in >>>> mind when you think of a "wiki page"? >>>> >>>> MU: good question. I guess I mean when I click on a wiki concept, like >>>> say "Bob" and now I'm on Bob's page. Or I might be on the page for the >>>> wiki concept: Idaho. >>>> >>>> DB: Same here, but perhaps the question should be rephrased as what is >>>> the relation between a wiki page and an entity or a triple in >>>> your mind. >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Is it just a place to hold an exchange of information (analogous to a >>>> "thread" in a forum)? If so, what does it mean to attach an >>>> attribution >>>> (a triple) to this page - >>>> should I interpret that all triples have the page as subject, >>>> which is a >>>> resource in some sense, and the meaning is whatever you >>>> assign to these >>>> triples? >>>> >>>> >>>> MU: this is what Semantic Media Wiki assumes, as I understand it. That >>>> is why in the triples in the markup, you don't have the subject >>>> explicitly there, it is assumed. In which case the page only >>>> really has >>>> doubles there explicitly, not triples. >>>> >>>> This assumption makes it impossible to add a real triple that >>>> relates to >>>> something else. >>>> >>>> DB: This is correct for Semantic Media Wiki. Each page is a >>>> concept and >>>> each relation on that page uses this concept as it subject. >>>> >>>> DB: Mike, more please on attaching a triple to a page, or to the wiki >>>> but not to a page. >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Is it supposed to encapsulate some kind of concept or set of >>>> concepts - >>>> then the triples be interpreted as statements about these concepts? >>>> Must it be in some sense "self-contained" - relative to some >>>> discourse, >>>> or relative to some conceptualization schema? >>>> I'd be very interested in knowing more the requirements (and >>>> scenarios) >>>> you seem to have in mind when you state that "that's why I stopped >>>> trying to use the tool"... what kind of applicaton do you need? >>>> >>>> MU: I want to create a wiki page, classify that page as being an >>>> instance of some class. >>>> So say I create a page for Bob, he is an instance of Person. On that >>>> page, I want to be able to write unstructured text. Like Bob lives in >>>> Idaho. And to be able to create a triple that says that. And I also >>>> mention Montana in the text, and while I'm thinking about it, Idaho >>>> borders on Montana. So from the web page, I want to be able to create >>>> Idaho and Montana as wiki concepts. Then I want to select >>>> each of them, >>>> and then choose among a set of relationships which includes bordersOn >>>> and set that relationship between these two concepts. >>>> >>>> Now I have a triple. I don't care where it is stored, it can be >>>> associate with any page or no page. In fact I don't even want >>>> to see it. >>>> I want the tool to take care of all that for me. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, the system now should know that Idaho and >>>> Montana are say, >>>> regions from the domain and range constraints of bordersOn**. >>>> >>>> ** Lets ignore the fact that a state is a political entity, and has an >>>> associated region. That's an ontology issue, not a tool issue. >>>> >>>> DB: Mike, it seems, from my limited exposure, that this is how Visual >>>> Knowledge operates. If you create a triple, but don't >>>> associate it with >>>> any page, how do you later make changes to that triple? In >>>> SemMedWiki, I >>>> would go to the page that is the implicit subject and make the change >>>> there. >>>> >>>> DB: In VK, are only pages instances of classes, or can instances exist >>>> without also being pages? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> swikig mailing list >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > swikig mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. 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