Probably less than 0.1% of all sets made today have been registered on both a L&L machine + a dedicated gauge.
If your shop can only afford one of two machines, which one should it be? - Green machine head specs measurement gauges; or - Mitchell Steelclub Loft and Lie bending machine I’d pick the L&L machine (as I have done). At least I can bend an iron and see if gaps are consistent later. The only time I’ve known of slippage with my Mitchell Steelclub is when bending Ping i20 irons of 17-4 SS. I’ve bent the Toe Stop, so I’ve had to replace this item, but I don’t think the face is coming off the face plate. I’ve retrofitted my Mitchel with a $25 digital angle gauge, so it’s easier to get a more precise number for loft. The best ball striker I’ve built for was my oldest son, who had a + handicap level at age 21. Amazing ball striker. We got our L&L machine when he was in middle high school. I asked if he wanted to hit off a lie board during fitting. He said no, since he hits all irons straight / with a baby draw, and his divots are perfect, so make new set the same lie. He said, ensure 4* loft separation to his current set at the time (LH’ed tour forged JN Muirfield blades from early 80’s). He plays Ping i20 retro fitted irons with reamed hosels. I still build his irons to the same lie spec he had when he was 16. Once we purchased a Mitchell L&L machine with no dedicated measuring gauge, he had very consistent iron yardage gaps. Not sure why I would even need to invest in a dedicated measurement gauges. What I do purchase, I buy the very best. Since loft and lie manufacturing tolerances on most iron models are +/- 1 deg published, some are out of spec by 1.5* or 2*. The odd set will have an overlap or close to it, meaning two irons could be very close to the same loft – L&L can rectify this. Not sure why you need a dedicated measurement gauge to squeeze out the last 0.1 or 0.2 degrees of loft, when unadjusted, many sets are off by an order of magnitude by 10 to 20X’s this amount, and a solid L&L bending machine can get you very close. With regard to a dedicated measurement gauge, what is the difference in repeatability between the $250 unit vs. a $2500 Green? Regards Harry, www.GolfDNA.com _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Davy Sent: 5-Aug-16 2:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Loft/Lie Question Only a fool would not listen to Tom. You'd be hard-pressed to find a handful of experts out there with his experience and knowledge. You can take what he says to the bank where statistical precision, especially when building clubs to prescribed specifications is concerned. While I would never toss the loft and lie machine angle gauges like Tom; when building sets to prescribed specs it pays to QC the adjusted specs on a dedicated measurement gauge for the reasons Tom explained. However, thirty-some years of bending irons suggests three reasons for not tossing the L&L machine gauges: 1. When dynamically fitting lie angles, subservience is given to lie board feedback, which is also used to confirm adjustments on a club by club basis. Actual specs can detect any anomalies across a set for further attention but the machine gauges expedite the lie fitting process of tweaking an average 1.00 degree per 0.25 inch off center for most situations. Confirming adjustments on the lie board also takes into account any waking up of molecular memory during the first couple of impacts after adjustment. But a dedicated gauge is absolutely necessary for confirming lofts before delivery and that is when lie angles an be observed and recorded properly. 2. The variables in the L&L machine gauges discussion are the quality, age, and condition of the machine being used and most importantly, the clubmaker doing the bending. Just like Trevino, Moe Norman, and more recently Stenson, have demonstrated superior ball striking skills, a lot depends on whose hands are on the bending bar. 3. Reason three for not tossing the machine gauges is that Tom has deeper pockets than me and my humble beginnings as a depression-era baby relegate me to a "waste not want not" lifestyle. ? Anybody that has built clubs for any time at all knows Tom is right about the accuracy of a dedicated measurement device because rarely do heads arrive to the precise settings you are capable of delivering and machine integrated gauges cannot be expected to match the precision of a dedicated gauge. The ideal process seems to be to measure the lofts and lies on a dedicated gauge and record the specs, adjust the lofts and lies to a baseline standard and go to the lie board to fine tune the lies. The final step is to QC the loft specs in a dedicated gauge and note the final loft and lie specs in the customer's file. As a final note, it is good advice for aspiring clubmakers to learn the value of calibrating their swingweight and frequency instruments with those of their premium shaft supplier. It comes in handy when you can specify a finished length, grip size, shaft model, swingweight, and frequency when ordering a replacement shaft for a customer, and then have your supplier drop one at your receiving dock the next morning. Cheers, -Davy. _____ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Tom Wishon <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 11:07:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Loft/Lie Question Steve You'll probably hear from others here who will tell you that you can do that accurately. But I am here to tell you as a clubhead designer since 1986 and from having created and designed many clubmaking tools during my career that I remove the slider measurement gauges from the bending machines I have, throw them away, and I only do loft and lie spec measurement before and after the bend on my clubhead specs measurement gauge machine. In the bending machine, the head can easily slip and move during bending or it can even move when you dial down the clamp to secure it. Depending on the unit, changes in offset between iron models can also affect the loft measurement. At the end of the day if you want complete precision and accuracy, you cannot trust the measurement devices connected to the L/L machines. Separate head specs measurement gauges are designed to do just that and only that. So if you want total accuracy, you have to do the measurements in a separate unit. TOM WISHON -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Longeway Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 9:28 AM To: [email protected] Subject: ShopTalk: Loft/Lie Question I have a question about loft/lie adjustments that I’m struggling with. I’ve always been under the impression that you cannot use a “bending machine” to take accurate loft lie measurements. You were to do adjustments on the machine, then use a club gauge to test the “real” loft and lie of the final product. Is this correct? Thanks for the help! Steve-- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/ ��mjY��좷�o+azw�Wb��h��(-櫞j+y�a����]�V���h��&
