Thank you Vivek. That very clearly answers my questions.
Regards,
Brett
On Tue, Sep 13, 2022 at 3:16 PM Vivek Nigam <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Brett,
>
>
>
> Please see my responses below.
>
>
>
> > * Does APNIC believe they can proceed with their proposed EC 2021-09
> implementation without Policy change?
>
>
>
> Yes. APNIC provides registration services to resource holders, and is
> entitled to impose a reasonable fee for those services. APNIC fees are a
> responsibility of the APNIC EC, and not a question of address policy.
>
>
>
> In the event that registration services are withdrawn due to non-payment,
> affected resources will be removed from whois and reverse DNS, and
> designated as “reserved” in order that they are not reallocated. As a
> consequence of the RPKI AS0 Policy (Prop-132), reserved resources are
> included in the AS0 ROA.
>
>
>
> > * Does the EC currently believe, given the current state of the HRM
> project, that 1-Jan-2023 is still a reasonable date to begin cutting off at
> least 160 thousand active endpoints from the Internet, and they take full
> responsibility for the outcomes if enacted?
>
>
>
> The APNIC Secretariat has advised the EC that 1 January 2023 is still a
> reasonable deadline, however it is possible that more time will be required
> to resolve some cases.
>
>
>
> The Secretariat will take all reasonable efforts to contact each and every
> historical resource holder, including contact with upstream providers for
> resources that are routed. While those efforts are continuing for any
> resource, no action will be taken to reserve that resource, even after 1
> January 2023. With this reasonable approach, we do not expect any adverse
> outcomes that should concern the APNIC EC.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Vivek
>
>
>
> *From: *Brett O'Hara <[email protected]>
> *Date: *Sunday, 11 September 2022 at 8:41 pm
> *To: *Vivek Nigam <[email protected]>
> *Cc: *JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] <[email protected]>
> *Subject: *Re: [sig-policy] Re: prop-147-v001: Historical Resources
> Management
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Just clarify what I'm asking for.
>
>
>
> 5.5.2 States;
>
> APNIC will protect all registrations of Historical Internet resources with
> the APNIC-HM maintainer, a practice consistent with the management of
> current resources.
>
> To ensure integrity of information, APNIC will not update historical
> information in the APNIC Whois Database until the resource holder
> demonstrates the organization’s right to the resources and enters a formal
> agreement with APNIC either as a member account or Non-Member account.
>
> The existing 4.2.1 states;
>
> A significant number of historical resources registered in the APNIC Whois
> Database are not announced to the global routing table.
>
> To recover these globally un-routed resources and place them back in the
> free pool for re-delegation, APNIC will contact networks responsible for
> historical address space in the APNIC region that has not been globally
> routed since 1 January 1998.
>
> To recover un-routed historical AS numbers, APNIC will contact networks
> responsible for resources not globally used for a reasonable period of time.
>
> By my interpretation, under current Policy, APNIC doesn't currently have
> the power to amend the whois records for Historical Resources and enact the
> implementation of EC 2021-09 for routed Historical Internet resources as
> stated by Vivek below. Also, enacting this policy against globally
> un-routed resources may also not be technically valid.
>
>
>
> If this is the case, APNIC can not proceed with its
> implementation from 1-Jan-2023 and needs to enact a change to the APNIC
> Internet Number Resource Policy to achieve these outcomes.
>
>
>
> This brings me to prop-147 which replaces 4.2.1 with;
>
>
> [Add] Section 4.3. Historical Resources Management
>
> Historical resources that have not been claimed by the custodian will be
> deleted from the APNIC Whois database after 1st January 2023, and marked as
> reserved.
>
> Historical resources marked as reserved have an additional twelve (12)
> months to be claimed by their custodians. After that, APNIC will add these
> resources to the free pool for re-delegation.
>
> Furthermore, from 1st January 2023, all historical resources need to be
> maintained in a current APNIC account. In the event of an account closure,
> the historical resource will be placed in a quarantine period and then made
> available for re-delegation similar to current resources.
>
> One potential interpretation is that 4.3 invalidates any form of
> "Original" Historical Resource referred to by 5.5.2 and replaces it with
> some form of "Claimed" Historical Resource or "Unclaimed" Historical
> Resource, in which 5.5.2 is no longer relevant. In which case, there is no
> point in maintaining the clause, and prop-147 should address this point.
>
>
>
> A clearer interpretation is that they are in conflict and an update to
> 5.5.2 is required to adopt prop-147. Updates to 5.5.1, 5.5.3 and 5.5.4
> should also be considered inline with the proposed implementation.
>
>
>
> To be clear I am generally in favour of EC 2021-09 and prop-147.
>
>
>
> The conversation on list about the time a former historical resource
> spends in Reserved status is something that needs consensus, but less
> relevant to my concerns.
>
>
>
> Per Vivek, the impact on Historical resources is around 625 resources or
> at least 160 thousand potentially active addresses on the public,
> operational Internet. The potential impact for innocent Internet end-points
> can not be understated here. I agree that this should be clearly stated
> under section 5, Advantages/Disadvantages and section 6, Impact on Resource
> Holders, and not "None".
>
>
>
> To be able to endorse prop-147, my outstanding questions are;
>
> * Does APNIC believe they can proceed with their proposed EC 2021-09
> implementation without Policy change?
>
> * Does the EC currently believe, given the current state of the HRM
> project, that 1-Jan-2023 is still a reasonable date to begin cutting off at
> least 160 thousand active endpoints from the Internet, and they take full
> responsibility for the outcomes if enacted?
>
> * Can the authors please address 5.5.2 and the Impact on Resource Holders
> assessment?
>
>
>
> I note time is of the essence. Should prop-147 not reach consensus on
> this next Thursday, the next date for the Policy SIG to discuss the
> proposal may be Feb next year. Even if it does pass, the EC Endorsement
> phase is not until December giving the secretariat very little time to
> update and publish the new policy before proposed implementation.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Brett O'Hara
>
> FJ Networking.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 9, 2022 at 9:28 PM Brett O'Hara <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Vivek,
>
>
>
> I 100% understand and, within reason, support the EC resolution 2021-09.
> I have attended many presentations on this topic and have gone through the
> process to acquire custodianship of my Historical Resources, and as such am
> not personally concerned about my situation.
>
> I just can't see anywhere in the existing APNIC Internet Number Resources
> Policy that the secretariat currently has the power on the 1st of Jan 2023
> to place Historical Resources advertised on the Internet into Reserved
> status. I may have misread or misinterpreted, and I'm happy to be proved
> wrong here.
>
>
>
> Can you please advise where in the Policy APNIC is currently empowered to
> take this action?
>
>
>
> Regard,
>
> Brett
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 9, 2022 at 8:35 PM Vivek Nigam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Jordi, Aftab,
>
>
>
> I have summarised the process APNIC uses to add/remove prefixes from APNIC
> AS0 ROA. This may help explain why you did not find some of the prefixes in
> AS0 ROA.
>
>
>
> Once a prefix is marked as 'reserved' it is added into AS0 ROA after 7
> days to cause as little disruption as possible and avoid any inadvertent
> actions. Where possible, we also aggregate the prefixes that are added into
> AS0 ROA. When a prefix is delegated to a Member, it is removed from AS0
> within 5 minute window.
>
>
>
> As per our implementation of APNIC EC resolution 2021-09, any historical
> resources that are not maintained under an APNIC account will be removed
> from whois and marked as reserved on 1 January, 2023. 7 days after that,
> those reserved prefixes will be added into AS0 ROA.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Vivek
>
>
>
> *From: *JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via sig-policy <[email protected]>
> *Date: *Wednesday, 7 September 2022 at 6:51 pm
> *To: *[email protected] <[email protected]>
> *Subject: *[sig-policy] Re: prop-147-v001: Historical Resources Management
>
> Question for the staff on this. Is the AS0 proposal not sufficient to
> comply with Aftab observation, or it is just something in the backlog of
> pending secretariat activities, or what is the reason for that?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El 30/8/22, 3:48, "Aftab Siddiqui" <[email protected]> escribió:
>
>
>
> Hi Vivek,
>
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 at 18:15, Vivek Nigam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Aftab,
>
>
>
> APNIC creates RPKI ROAs with origin AS0 for all undelegated address space
> (marked as “Available” and “Reserved” in the
> delegated-apnic-extended-latest stats file. It may be worth noting that
> APNIC publishes these AS0 ROAs in a different Trust Anchor (AS0 TAL) and
> recommends its Members use APNIC AS0 TAL as a routing information service
> only.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.apnic.net/community/security/resource-certification/apnic-limitations-of-liability-for-rpki-2/
>
>
>
>
>
> That is incorrect, there are more than 160 IPv4 prefixes (I haven't
> checked v6 yet) which are marked as either "reserved" or "available" in the
> APNIC delegation file and they don't exist in AS-0 ROA. So there must be
> some policy which is in place.
>
>
>
> delegate file: 2.3|apnic|20220830|158240||20220829|+1000
>
> AS0 ROA: SigningTime: 2022-08-30T01:10:15Z
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Aftab A. Siddiqui
>
>
>
>
>
>
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