Hi Brett,
Somehow, I actually responded to your last point before reading it in my previous email. I think is really bad that the EC takes decisions that belong to the community, unless the community is being called for considering a proposal. I don’t think it happened, and actually instead, when I submitted a proposal, it was rejected. The EC, the chairs and the community should learn a lesson from this. And yes, the EC decision is binding for the staff, unless we make a policy proposal to disallow the EC decision(s) or even change the bylaws. Too late anyway for this meeting. And to be clear, I’ve not talked to the EC about this proposal, neither the one I submmited about a year ago. I was already considering this as a result of the staff presentation on several issues with policies. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 29/8/22, 13:17, "Brett O'Hara" <[email protected]> escribió: Thanks for your clarification Vivek. Text of the Resolution is as follows; Resolution 2021-09: The EC resolved that all historical resource holders will need to become, or remain, a Member or Non-member of APNIC on and from [1 January 2023], in order to continue to receive registry services from APNIC. Interpretation from the secretariat via Vivek is that this implies all unclaimed historical records will be placed in reserved status, regardless of being advertised or not, and subject to ROA AS0 under 5.1.4 on the 1st of January 2023. I see prop-147 is an interpretation of EC resolution 2021-09 and attempts to clarify this within the Policy. My first question is procedural and governance related. Can or should the secretariat implement the EC resolution without the Policy being updated? If the EC could be considered an effective co-sponsor of this proposal, my previous comments now have a broader audience. Does the EC still believe the date they set on EC Resolution 2021-09 is still reasonable given the progress of the HRM process and the current impact to the potential 193k+ ((175 in progress + 581 no response)* 256 minimum size) active Internet endpoints and how does the Policy SIG address the EC for their response on this consideration? Regards, Brett On Mon, Aug 29, 2022 at 6:15 PM Vivek Nigam <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Aftab, APNIC creates RPKI ROAs with origin AS0 for all undelegated address space (marked as “Available” and “Reserved” in the delegated-apnic-extended-latest stats file. It may be worth noting that APNIC publishes these AS0 ROAs in a different Trust Anchor (AS0 TAL) and recommends its Members use APNIC AS0 TAL as a routing information service only. https://www.apnic.net/community/security/resource-certification/apnic-limitations-of-liability-for-rpki-2/ Hi Jordi, > If I understood correctly the implications of the EC decision, *if* tis > policy proposal doesn’t go thru they will become reserved anyway. > > Could the staff confirm that? Yes, as per the EC resolution 2021-09, all historical resource holders will need to become, or remain, a member or non-member of APNIC on and from 1 January 2023, in order to continue to receive registry services from APNIC. Any historical resources that are not managed under an APNIC account from 1 January 2023 will be removed from whois and placed into “Reserved” status. Our understanding is that your proposal is to address the actions that need to be taken 12 months after these resources have been placed into reserved status. Thanks Vivek From: Aftab Siddiqui <[email protected]> Date: Saturday, 27 August 2022 at 2:30 pm To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>, Brett O'Hara <[email protected]> Subject: [sig-policy] Re: prop-147-v001: Historical Resources Management Hi Jordi, I absolutely concur with Brett and Andrew, they have already mentioned the reasoning very clearly. I don't support this policy right now and maybe we can review the status in 12 months and have another constructive discussion. Also, it would be a right time to have a clear policy from APNIC to clarify what and when any (available + reserved) resource goes into AS0 TAL. Regards, Aftab A. Siddiqui On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 at 14:21, Brett O'Hara <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Jordi and SIG The implication of your proposal, by 5.1.4, is that by putting them in Reserved status, APNIC will assign them RPKI ROA AS0 and deny them routing on the Internet. You will then allow them 12 months grace after you have denied their operation to officially claim them. Your update from 6 to 12 months has not allowed APNIC any more time to contact custodians. I agree with Andrew that the current impact is too large and too damaging to internet end point users in your proposed time frame. I believe APNIC members should asess the progress of the HRM project in 12 months time and consider your proposal then, rather than mandating in a policy final date in this cycle, despite your afore mentioned risks. Regards, Brett On Fri, Aug 26, 2022 at 10:19 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via sig-policy <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Andrew, all, I see it otherwise. We are providing APNIC one year to resolve the remaining cases. If we don’t have this policy on January 1st 2023, all those addresses will be “frozen” into reserved status. Please note this: “The recent EC resolution (22nd February 2022), imply that historical resource holders in the APNIC region would need to become Members or Non-Members by 1st January 2023 in order to receive registration services. Failing this, historical resource registration will no longer be published in the APNIC Whois Database and said resources will be placed into reserved status.” Failing to reach consensus on this proposal (suggestions to improve it, of course, are welcome, as we can publish new versions in the next few days), means that we can’t change the situation up to a new alternative proposal reach consensus, which could happen around March 2023, or may be September 2023. Till then those resources are “lost” in the wild. Resources in the wild could be more easily hijacked or used for all kind of malicious activities. Do you think the community should accept that risk? In the impact analysis of the first version, APNIC indicated that 6 months may be too short, and 12 months will be safer, so we opted for keeping the 12 months option only. Do you have any data that suggest that APNIC will be unable to complete the project in the next year? Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 26/8/22, 2:56, "Andrew Yager" <[email protected]> escribió: Hi, Thanks for this data vivek. On the basis of this I cannot suggest this proposal can be accepted - the impact is too large. Certainly we, as a community, and APNIC as a whole, need to look at what can be done to assist these prefixes coming "into the fold" - but with 581 still with no response, and 175 "not yet done" - the risk of this proposal having adverse consequences on the routing table is too great. Andrew On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 at 17:45, Vivek Nigam <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Andrew, Please see my responses below. > a) the number of legacy resources currently in use (as in, visible in the > global table), but not yet claimed through this process We started this project in February this year and identified 3932 historical IPv4 prefixes that were not managed under an APNIC account. 885 of these prefixes are currently visible in the routing table. Following if the breakdown of these 885 prefixes. Retained by custodian: 81 These prefixes have successfully been claimed and are managed under active APNIC accounts now. Being claimed by custodian: 175 We are in contact with the potential custodians and they are in the process of claiming these prefixes. No response: 581 We have sent emails to the custodians but have not got a response as yet. We are in the process to find alternate contacts by contacting the ASN announcing these prefixes. Yet to contact: 44 No valid contact information available in whois. We are in the process to look for alternate contacts via publicly available searches as well as contacting the ASN announcing these prefixes. No longer needed: 4 The custodians have informed us they no longer need these prefixes. We are in the process to contact the ASN announcing these prefixes to check why they are announcing them. > b) the number of legacy resource claims that have been attempted but not > successfully justified So far we have not formally rejected any claims. Where a claimant does not provide sufficient information to support their claim, we do not reject the claim but rather advise them we will need more information in order to properly assess it. We have 3 pending cases where we have requested additional supporting information and one case where the custodian has refused to setup an APNIC account. We will continue to assist them with their claims through the year. Thanks Vivek From: Srinivas (Sunny) Chendi <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, 24 August 2022 at 6:02 pm To: Andrew Yager <[email protected]>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [sig-policy] Re: prop-147-v001: Historical Resources Management Dear Andrew, Thank you for requesting data. We will do our best to provide it as soon as possible. Regards, Sunny APNIC Secretariat On 24/08/2022 4:03 pm, Andrew Yager wrote: Is there any data indicating: a) the number of legacy resources currently in use (as in, visible in the global table), but not yet claimed through this process b) the number of legacy resource claims that have been attempted but not successfully justified I am aware that this has remained a topic of concern for a number of APNIC members and technical engineers, and many have been working with APNIC to try and resolve resource allocations with various degrees of success. Andrew On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 at 09:36, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via sig-policy <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Sunny, all, Just summited a new proposal version amending the editorial inputs and also adding the following text: “Furthermore, from 1st January 2023, all historical resources need to be maintained in a current APNIC account. In the event of an account closure, the historical resource will be placed in a quarantine period and then made available for re-delegation similar to current resources.” Also, in order to facilitate the job, I agree that will be safer to move to a single option with 12 months, so I’ve deleted the “2 choices” in the new version. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 23/8/22, 6:51, "Srinivas (Sunny) Chendi" <[email protected]> escribió: Hi all, This is the secretariat's impact assessment for prop-147-v001, which is also available on the proposal page. http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-147 APNIC understands that this proposal suggests that historical IPv4 resources be justified and claimed, or that they be made available to other organizations that require them. APNIC also notes the deletion of Section 4.2.1. Recovery of unused historical resources. As reported to the community at APNIC 50, this may no longer be applicable once the project is completed, possibly by the end of 2022. https://conference.apnic.net/50/assets/files/APCS790/Reclaiming-unused-IPv4.pdf Recommendations: For consistency of language and to align with the current policy document, the reference to "available pool" could be changed to "free pool". Also the reference to "original resource holder" and "original custodians" could be changed to "custodian/s". Given the number of uncontactable resource holders, the 12-month option would be safer for APNIC to implement, as some historical resource holders may not be aware of the changes to the treatment of historical resources until they are placed into reserved status on January 1, 2023. Clarification: This proposal only addresses historical resources that have not been claimed by January 1st, 2023. It does not specify what happens to the historical resources that are claimed, but the Member or Non-Member account is not renewed after January 1, 2023. These resources will be considered historical and may remain in reserve status indefinitely. Regards, Sunny APNIC Secretariat On 11/08/2022 4:59 pm, chku wrote: Dear SIG members, The proposal "prop-147: Historical Resources Management" has been sent to the Policy SIG for review. It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting (OPM) at APNIC 54 on Thursday, 15 September 2022. https://conference.apnic.net/54/program/schedule/#/day/8 We invite you to review and comment on the proposal on the mailing list before the OPM. The comment period on the mailing list before the OPM is an important part of the Policy Development Process (PDP). We encourage you to express your views on the proposal: - Do you support or oppose this proposal? - Does this proposal solve a problem you are experiencing? If so, tell the community about your situation. - Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal? - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear? - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective? Information about this proposal is appended below as well as available at: http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-147 Regards, Bertrand, Shaila, and Ching-Heng APNIC Policy SIG Chairs --------------------------------------------------------------- prop-147-v001: Historical Resources Management ---------------------------------------------------------------- Proposer: Jordi Palet Martinez ([email protected]) Anupam Agrawal ([email protected]) 1. Problem statement -------------------- Section 4.2.1 is outdated and only looking for very old non-routed resources. The recent EC resolution (22nd February 2022), imply that historical resource holders in the APNIC region would need to become Members or Non-Members by 1st January 2023 in order to receive registration services. Failing this, historical resource registration will no longer be published in the APNIC Whois Database and said resources will be placed into reserved status. Given the continued need for IPv4 addresses, it would seem illogical to keep these unused historical resources in reserve indefinitely. Alternatively, these resources can be used in a way that is sufficiently justified in accordance with existing policies, allowing other organizations to benefit from them during the IPv6 transition. 2. Objective of policy change ----------------------------- Ensure that historical IPv4 resources are justified and claimed, or that they are available for other organizations that require them. If the resources are marked as reserved, the original holders may reclaim them with a valid justification, when APNIC failed to contact them for whatever reason. One example of a valid justification is the case where an organization is actually using them internally and there are valid reasons to instead use RFC1918 space, however the space is not routed. To give the original resource holders more time to reclaim them, we propose two time-frames for the community discussion and consideration: 6 months and 12 months. 3. Situation in other regions ----------------------------- In other RIRs legacy resources lose their legacy status when the RSA is signed (upon receiving other resources), so they become under the regular monitoring. In other cases, there is nothing specified by policies. 4. Proposed policy solution --------------------------- Proposed policy solution (option 6-months): Actual text: 4.2.1. Recovery of unused historical resources (remove) To recover these globally un-routed resources and place them back in the free pool for re-delegation, APNIC will contact networks responsible for historical address space in the APNIC region that has not been globally routed since 1 January 1998. To recover un-routed historical AS numbers, APNIC will contact networks responsible for resources not globally used for a reasonable period of time. Proposed text: 4.3. Historical Resources Management Historical resources that have not been claimed by the original resource holder will be deleted from the APNIC Whois database after 1st January 2023, and marked as reserved. Historical resources marked as reserved have an additional six (6) months to be claimed by their original custodians. After that, APNIC will add these resources to the available pool for re-delegation. Proposed policy solution (option 12-months): Actual text: 4.2.1. Recovery of unused historical resources (remove) To recover these globally un-routed resources and place them back in the free pool for re-delegation, APNIC will contact networks responsible for historical address space in the APNIC region that has not been globally routed since 1 January 1998. To recover un-routed historical AS numbers, APNIC will contact networks responsible for resources not globally used for a reasonable period of time. Proposed text: 4.3. Historical Resources Management Historical resources that have not been claimed by the original resource holder will be deleted from the APNIC Whois database after 1st January 2023, and marked as reserved. Historical resources marked as reserved have an additional twelve (12) months to be claimed by their original custodians. After that, APNIC will add these resources to the available pool for re-delegation. 5. Advantages / Disadvantages ----------------------------- Advantages: Fulfilling the objective above indicated. Disadvantages: None. 6. Impact on resource holders ----------------------------- None. 7. References ------------- None. _______________________________________________ sig-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] -- _______________________________________________________________________ Srinivas (Sunny) Chendi (he/him) Senior Advisor - Policy and Community Development Asia Pacific Network Information Centre (APNIC) | Tel: +61 7 3858 3100 PO Box 3646 South Brisbane, QLD 4101 Australia | Fax: +61 7 3858 3199 6 Cordelia Street, South Brisbane, QLD | http://www.apnic.net _______________________________________________________________________ NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. 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