Hi Mike and Crew, Re: your statement, "..., as the folks who use the High Voltage AC (HVAC) process claim that they produce small uncharged particles..."
Certainly not all of us. I think the particles are charged, but the valence charge of the atoms in the cluster is not what is creating it. The charge is called the Zeta potential, and I am still trying to find someone who can describe how it comes to be. I have never talked with anyone making HVAC who thinks the particles are not charged. Once again, thanks for all of your energy keeping this info machine running. James Osbourne, Holmes [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: M. G. Devour [SMTP:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 5:34 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CS information needed > Hi all. My name is Jeff and I am new to the silver list. I have > Chronic CNS Lyme Disease, have tried many antibiotic routines with > limited success, and am interested in making and experimenting with > colloidal silver. Jeff, welcome aboard! We've got some Lyme "experts" here who will fill you in on how they treated their conditions. You're in good company! You're asking very good questions, below. I'll try to give you my impression of the range of opinion and whatever consensus has emerged in the industry and on the silver-list. > 1. What exactly is the form of silver, that I am looking to > produce, that is an effective antibiotic? I'd like to understand > the science. It appears that colloidal silver consists of silver > particles held in solution. Are these particles just extremely small > or does their ionic state maintain them within the solution, such > that the solution is fairly homogeneous? The silver is said to be in the form of small particles in a range of sizes that make them "bioavailable." The numbers vary among different sources, but are in the neighborhood of 1 to 10 nanometers. The particles are also supposed to have a charge on them, which helps to keep them in suspension. This may not be completely necessary, as the folks who use the High Voltage AC (HVAC) process claim that they produce small uncharged particles. After a bit of time, the preparation appears to be *totally* homogenous, unless you're considering the likely range of size of the particles in any one batch. A couple of other remarks: Your use of the word "antibiotic" is probably not precise. CS is unlikely to act in the same fashion as true antibiotics do. One of our members who has some knowledge of this told us CS acts mostly as an astringent. The other thing is your desire to understand the science. This is exactly what many of us here are engaged in and it is a work in progress. Precious little of what you'll find on the web rises to the level of science. Most of the claims floating around are the result of rehashing the same handful of early articles in popular magazines and journals. There is virtually *no* real science for you to refer to. What we *do* have is a large and growing body of anecdote and a practical understanding of what's happening as a result of the use and experimentation of a lot of individuals. Given the expense of *real* science and the disinterest or overt hostiliy of the mainstream community, this situation will not change soon. The members of this list represent a decent collection of knowledge and wisdom about CS. There's plenty more to be found in the world, but this isn't a bad place to visit on your way. > 2. I hear of precipitate forming on the bottom of the container > while brewing. Is this due to excessive current density, as seen in > a lead acid cell, that causes flaking of the electrodes. Would the > use of electrodes with a larger surface area be more effective in > this process. You've just traveled a *HUGE* distance in one leap! Bravo! The early, simplest designs used a small lamp to limit current in the neighborhood of 40 milliamps through a pair of 12 to 16 gauge silver wires 3 to 4 inches long in a glass of water. They also relied on a bit of salt or saline solution added to distilled water (some even recommended using tap water!) to speed things up a bit. Under the right conditions, these produced a clear CS with a substantial concentration very rapidly, though we've been told by some that the particle size is rather on the large side. The product was and is used my many people without known harm to date and plenty of reports of success. It does have a more limited shelf life, with some fallout occurring after some days or a week or two. Most CS advocates are pushing no salt, distilled water only recipes nowadays. Here on the list and among some of the vendors, the notion of current limiting is emerging as a good way to keep the production of larger particles to a minimum. Now we're talking about only a couple of milliamps for the same two-wires-in-a-glass setup. Production takes longer and most recipes have problems with a buildup of "fluff" on the electrodes, but these things are easily enough dealt with. The product now ranges from clear to a golden yellow depending on concentration and the actual distribution of particle sizes achieved. None of what I just said applies to the HVAC case, which is pretty much beyond my ken. There's been occasional reports of fallout from HVAC CS while folks are monkeying around with their setups and don't get things exactly right. The output from the manufactured CS generators, like the CS Pro, is consistant with no fallout if the machine is being run properly. > 3. I hear of many different voltages being used. When HVAC is used, > is the voltage applied to the electrodes AC? If so, what is the > advantage of using AC vs DC. Folks have used everything from a few volts to kilovolts, AC and DC. A few tens of volts DC is useful to get things started more quickly in plain distilled water. The various current limiting methods folks are using will reduce that to just a handful of volts as the CS becomes more conductive. Yes, HVAC does describe what's applied to the electrodes. LVDC, or Low Voltage DC, similarly describes that process. We've occasionally confused ourselves when using a AC line powered cube-type transformer to provide the low voltage DC to the cell! <GRIN> Advantages to HVAC? Well, production rate for one thing. Also, the top of the line HVAC units have received a lot of attention to their development. The best units are quite reliable, users tell us. The manufacturers also claim consistent small particles and very long shelf life. We are getting to the point where we can claim the same thing for some of the LVDC recipes, so it may be a moot point. The downside to HVAC is cost, and safety if you're tinkering around with the process. Also, it depends on the availability of the electrical infrastructure. Our more survivalist oriented members remain interested in LVDC processes for that reason as well. > 4. I have, or can put together from parts, sources that will put out > AC or DC at voltages from 0 to 20 kv or more...probably could go > higher if I put my mind to it, and am experienced in working with HV > supplies. Where would be a good place to begin? Can someone > describe a typical setup? We've got a couple of HVAC experimentors who will probably volunteer to lend a hand if you like. Also, look into the CS Pro site. That's the class act of the business. > 5. I understand that the conductivity of the electrolyte increases > during the process. Should some form of current limiting be > employed, such that the voltage is reduced, to avoide excessive > current density? Is natural convection of the electrolyte sufficient > to maintain an even current density? The answers are: yes; no. At least that's my belief at this point. Regarding current limiting, see my answers above. At least occasional stirring is usually used. Any sort of glass stirring rod or plastic spoon is okay. Metal is a no-no. Some folks employ little motors spinning a paddle or whip to move things around. Another idea is to bubble a little clean air or an inert gas through the water during processing. Heating the water during processing also stirs things up a bunch, but it does introduce a whole host of variables that are difficult to control and not well understood. The HVAC processes seem to set up enough convection to keep things going, or perhaps rely on or account for stratification to some extent. > 6. Must both electrodes consist of silver? It would seem that if > direct current were utilized, one electrode could be stainless > steel, as the flow of current would be in one direction only and > therefore, the polarity could be set such that the silver only, > would be depleted during the process. This is true. In fact, at least one HVAC design I read about used a stainless container! Just don't hook things up backward. There's stuff in stainless steel you would not want to drink, I think! > 7. Is the higher concentration (PPM) silver more effective in > treating an infection? I have seen numbers ranging from a few ppm to > many hundreds of ppm. Higher ppm makes sense for topical applications to an extent. It also allows you to take less orally, if that's an issue. If using it as a preservative (or supplement) in beverages (juice, milk) higher concentration allows you to treat without watering things down too much. However, folks do just fine with stuff that's only a few ppm. Among other things it doesn't taste as bad. The aim is to dose for effect. Take enough to produce results. Also, bear in mind that a lot of the very high ppm claims have been shown to be, shall we say, optimistic? > And, is there a point where the concentration / dose has shown > toxicity when taken internally? The only known form of toxicity for silver *metal* is argyria, a disfiguring blue-gray staining of the skin or mucous membrains that results from the deposition of silver particles deep in the skin. It appears to require hundreds of milligrams to several grams of metal to produce the effect. Some of the silver *salts* or other compounds of silver have significant toxicity, which is one reason not to use tap water. At least some of what you produce would be, well, God knows what! All the case reports of argyria we've been able to find, apart from occupational exposure to silver aerosols, have been from prescription pharmaceutical preparations of high concentration silver salts, crude silver colloids made by pulverizing silver metal to form a powder, or early silver-protien suspensions. Most of these date from the first half of the century, as the medical and pharmaceutical communities have since figured out what they were doing wrong, *and* modern antibiotics have replaced them for most applications. We don't know of a single documented case, yet, of anybody being injured by a modern electrolytically made small particle CS. This is *far* from *proof* that CS is safe, so you must proceed at your own risk. One good thing we've learned is that at least some of the small particle silver is being excreted. This claim was made elsewhere, and confirmed by one list member who happened to have his feces analysed for other purposes, and found elevated silver levels consistent with the amount of silver he was using regularly. So, given the great differece between the forms and amounts of silver required to cause argyria and what we get in our CS preparations, and the seemingly correct assertion that at least some, if not most or all of the silver consumed in this form is excreted, a reasonable person might decide it's safe enough to try. I have, as have many others. However, you will have to research this, consult your chosen professional advisers, and decide for yourself if it is safe. > I guess this is a good start. Any and all information would be very > much appreciated. My remarks are also just a good start. You'll get other points of view as you dig further and as you get acquainted with other folks here. I think you've got a good head start on understanding what's going on. I wish you well in the search and I welcome you to our little community of experimentors. > Jeff - K1LE CT Yo! Yet another silver list Ham! 73, de KF8XV Be well, Mike Devour silver-list owner Disclaimer: I, MICHAEL DEVOUR, DISCLAIM ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE USE OR MISUSE OF THE INFORMATION, INCLUDING LINKS, PROVIDED ABOVE AND ON THIS LIST. EVERY INDIVIDUAL SHOULD OBTAIN COMPETENT MEDICAL ADVICE BEFORE USING THIS INFORMATION. THIS FREE INFORMATION HAS NOT BEEN VERIFIED BY ME AND IS PROVIDED SOLELY FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES TO INDIVIDUALS INTERESTED IN THESE TOPICS. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: [email protected] -or- [email protected] with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: [email protected] List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
