[snip]
Because of the set point I use, mine won't go much beyond 17PPM as per
the meter by doing a reset procedure.
This isn't clear to me. Do you have a set point and that's it? Or is it
adjustable by the user? I assume you're speaking of an external meter
like the Hanna DiST1 to do the PPM measurement. Correct?
I can set the initial point higher..but not with a switch.
What do you mean "but not with a switch"? I don't get what you're saying
here.
## The set point is the reference voltage that tells the generator to shut
down. It's determined by a zener diode that can be changed internally, but
alas, no external switching. It can be fooled into running longer by
spreading the ends of the rods apart , however.
I haven't because of the 'iffyness' at the higher concentrations where
the CS will stay clear most of the time but sometimes will turn pale
yellow after a few days. [Has anyone figured out, specifically, why this
happens sometimes and not always?]
I have seen it occasionally get a very pale yellow cast after some time
when it reads over 20-25 PPM. It usually stays clear however.
## Same here. I think it has something to do with being stored cold. I've
never had anyone from Florida ask about this but several people in Utah and
Wyoming have. I almost never saw this here in NC until this winter.
We don't notice any deposits in the bottom. However when the unit is
lifted off the vessel after long runs the anode sometimes lets some fluff
fall off, so we recommend folks filter with a coffee filter that has been
pre-washed to help prevent agglomeration. Using the filter could be a
culprit in the occasional yellowing. I suspect so, but would rather see
clear CS than have anything be visible in the water. If we filter and
stay under 15 PPM, no agglomeration is ever seen. I think stirring really
does do the job
## I've seen coffee filters turn reddish when left in sunlight. It's
quite possible that any contamiating particle could form a base form for
crystalization. I understand that water will not crystalize unless there is
some sort of particle for it to crystalize around.
My [unproven] theory about the later yellowing:
1]A high concentration of charged CS particle is produced.
2] If the storage temperature is less than the production temperature, the
solution wants to compact...shrink? [whatever]
3] If the particles are not completely hydrated [by stirring etc] they have
interfaces available to free oxygen which has a negative charge.
4] This negative charge neutralizes the positive charge of some of the
unhydrated ions and allows them to bind to each other in varying amounts
producing an agglomeration around an oxygen atom. This effect seems to be
worse when using fresh ozonated water and better when that water is either
heated or allowed to vent for several days.
I only get deposits when using cool water and no stirring. They can get
pretty thick with fresh ozonated water but diminish with that same batch of
water if it is left loosely capped for several days.
One thing that happens sometimes [concerning deposits] is noticable only
when lighting a good clear container from the bottom [heater light]
If deposits DO form on the bottom of the container, they can sometimes be
seen to range from black under one rod to faint yellow under the other with
brownish in between. Another hard to see effect is the release of golden
particles off one rod and what appears to be a white cloud off the
other. It would seem that nearly exactly in the middle between the rods
that the golden cloud shifts to white.
This , of course, cannot be seen if any sort of stirring is used...and
may not happen at all. [Bottom light not used but turned on briefly to
observe it almost immediately disrupts the effect]
Would this be the "boundary layer"?
This tells me that perhaps silver ions can make a crystal around an
oxygen atom. The more oxygen atoms in the crystal, the deeper the color and
the larger the crystal. So, all observations are included. Particle size
does relate to color AND various levels of oxidation. { Pardon if I don't
use that term in a classic chemical sense}
Now, if a conductance meter only measures ions,not metallic silver or
silver oxides, the colored solution may contain much more total silver
content than will be read by that meter.
Whelp, that's the current mish mash of ideas.
Ken
I have to thank Ole Bob for the efforts he expended doing the initial work
with stirring. I know Fred also stirs but I think it's with an aquarium
pump, not a motor.
We may have different meters too, [Hanna DiST1] so the comparative
numbers are up for question and my meter reads about a 3rd of what my
lab reports say. What's the real scoop? I don't know.
We use the Hanna PWT. It's range is 0-99.9 uS with 2 percent of full
scale accuracy. So it's only off by as much as 2 PPM. And of course
we're talking about measurements down at the low end of the range. The
Hanna Dist1 is a total dissolved solids device and reads 0-1999 with 2
percent accuracy, so you can see it could be off by as much as 20
PPM. Not accurate enough in my mind. And I think the PWT is a better
measuring device because it measures conductance instead of dissolved solids.
## Actually they all read conductance. It's just expressed in different
ways... but you're right. The PWT is probably a closer expression but it's
still unclear just what it's expressing where it relates to ionic and
metallic silver [or oxides of silver, or maybe even semi oxides of
silver]. Neither are made specifically for that application.
A heater is easily made by cutting a 1 inch hole in a can and placing
it upside down on a night light. I looks really cool too! Hand
stirring takes a bit of attention. Stirring devices are far more
complicated for the home brewer. [Cudos to your new generator! I
certainly don't disagree that mechanical stirring is the way to
go..unless, perhaps ,using a rotating disc electrode]
I tried the 1/4 inch x .013 inches silver ribbon but found it too
flimsy to maintain a consistent distance, difficult to clean without
distorting and difficult to make easily replaceable or swapable with
other metals. Also, because of edge discharge characteristics, the flat
ribbon doesn't have an evenly distributed current density. Even round
wire will tend to discharge more ions at the ends.
But, in effect, flat ribbon may discharge somewhat faster because of
all those edges. We both get about 3 PPM per hour?
We recommend using 16 ounces of water so our times are different than
yours. We get about 4 PPM per hour in a pint.
You don't get variations with water temperature? Cold house vs warm house?
I haven't observed any obvious differences. However we don't heat the
water, so room temp. water variations shouldn't be discernible in the
overall scheme.
Anyhow, Trem
Good job!
Thanks again Ken.
Trem
www.silvergen.com
Constant Current Colloid Generators
At 07:02 PM 7/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
Hi List,
Not to argue with you Ken but our auto shutoff generator makes crystal
clear CS up to 20-25 PPM as measured with a Hanna PWT using the
mechanical stirring motor we have incorporated into our newest
generator. The CS does not get any color and has an almost
imperceptible Tyndall effect. And it's a lot easier than having to heat
water or rig up some kind of thermal hot plate. Most people aren't up
for that. Many experimenter types are but I think most people aren't.
And, cooling water that has been heated is really problematic. What
about people that live in cold or warm houses? How hot is hot to start
with. How cool does it have to get before thermal currents cease to
help, etc. If we're looking for repeatability and ease of use, a motor
with a constant stirring speed and a constant current regulator with
auto shutoff is about as good as you can get with LVDC process.
Sorry to toot our own horn but that's how I see it.
Trem
www.silvergen.com
Constant Current Colloid Generators
At 09:44 PM 7/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
While mechanical stirring does seem to get very good results,
thermal stirring via convection currents helps a lot and is a lot simpler.
Either preheat the water to 80 -100 degrees and let cool while
running the generator, or start with room temp water and place it on a
small heater such as a 4 watt night light bulb.
Letting hot water cool while in process tends to give that light
Tyndal Effect but limits the max concentration [with my auto off unit]
to about 8-9 PPM as read by a PPM meter.
Check out
www.colloidal-silver.com
and click on the merchants directory for a fairly complete list of
generator makers.
The only one I recommend against is the last...Utopia
They are very proud of the brown sludge their generator makes for
some reason. They use 3 nine volt batteries, 2 silver rods and
nothing else. I think they recommend using sea salt as well. A no no.
With their set up, there's also a possibility of getting some lead
and tin into the mix as the wires have exposed solder on the ends. Not
extremely likely, but possible.
You can do something similar for a lot less. You can make fairly
good CS with such a unit but it takes a lot of care and
experimentation. I doubt you will be able to go stronger than 3 to 5
PPM without making yellow to brown colored CS.
k...@czen
At 03:28 PM 7/9/00 -0500, you wrote:
Okay. What is the Tyndall effect? All I could find is that Tyndall(John)
was an Irish physicist. Also, where might one purchase a mechanism for
stirring?
>Is it John?
>
>Stirring really helps distribute the ionic cloud away from the anode
as the
>atoms are being released during production. If you can get them
disbursed
>in the water with stirring, they tend not to agglomerate. It makes
a much
>better product. It will be crystal clear with no color if you keep it
>under 15-20 PPM. Will also have a minimal Tyndall effect.
>
>Trem
>www.silvergen.com
>Constant Current Colloid Generators
>
>
>At 03:02 PM 7/9/00 -0500, you wrote:
>>Is stirring necessary?
>>
>>
>>
>> >JO\ohn;
>> >
>> >Make your own genterator, all you need is a DC power source, a
digital
>> >multimeter, stirring motor, and two pieces of #14 sliver .999 or
better and
>> >some clip leads.
>> >
>> >Contact me off list and I can probvide more detailed info.
>> >
>> >"Ole Bob"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--
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silver.
>> >
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>> >
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>>
>>
>>
