Hi Ken, The whole process chemically and physically is quite complicated, and there has been very little research in this area beyond the early 1900's. The silver particle size lies at the boundary of what is considered the colloidal domain, and particles of this size display properties of both colloids and solutions.
The language of chemistry is pretty arcane and grew out of misunderstandings of observations and is backwards. I have commented on some of your observations below. Regards Ivan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ode Coyote" <[email protected]> > Ivan and all > > I have been trying to follow, stay silent and build a mental picture of a > mechanical structure that incorporates all my observations. > I have no formal training in chemistry. The official language [redox] > seems backwards to me so I won't speak it. I can barely think it after > struggling to turn it all around. Most of what is being said sails over my > head. > All this is just a simplistic picture....ideas with a tilt toward what > 'could' be happening as opposed to what can't happen...{I have no idea > about what can't happen} > > There seems to be a shifting role that free oxygen (O1?) plays in this > scenerio of particle size and crystal color...perhaps offset by polarized > water molecules. > For instance: > A large cluster/crystal has a yellowish/brownish/reddish color that will > deposit on the glass of a container over time. H2O2 instantly dissolves > this color making it vanish. > Fresh ozonated water seems to enhance the formation of colorful particles > and silver oxide deposits. [releasing O1 atoms that combine with the O1 > componant of the colored particle, making a stable O2 and a pure > metallic..maybe 'recharged'.. particle ???] > H2O2 very quickly cleans this black stuff from the electrodes. > Under close well lit observation, deposits...if on the bottom of the glass > container as CS is being made with still/unstirred water, deposits seen > with light shining 'through' them...sometimes display a color shift from > white to faint yellow to brown to black, depending on the distance from > each electrode. [White on one side under the electrode, black on the other > side under the electrode and shades of color from faint yellow to dark > brown in between.] > > My thinking is: > Particles grow from ions but those [+]ions must somehow be associated with > [-]oxygen, either (1) directly associated with free oxygen, building a > crystal that includes some oxygen which gives it , both, the ability to > grow in size and it's color. [not exactly like a pigment, but more like a > shaped crystal face that refracts/reflects/absorbs light differently than a > pure metal] > Couple this scenerio with varying degrees of scenerio #2 where the more > hydration that takes place, the less effect free oxygen atoms [O1?] have > and the smaller/paler the particle is. There is very little free oxygen in water, and it will not be found as O1- the singlet radical which will react almost as quickly as it is formed. When water breaks into it component ions it forms H+ and OH- ions. It is possible that some silver oxide (hydroxide) is formed at the electrodes when the electrolysis is driven hard, but there will not be much at pH7. The colour of silver particles can be explained purely by size, and do not need to be complexed in order to be appear coloured. The manner of particle growth seems to be moot, but it seems that when a stable colloid is made, it remains stable indefinitely. > [***???] O1 oxygen could come from charging dissolved ozone [O3], > charging dissolved O2 and or some initial production from an electrode > before it stabilizes into O2???? That is true, but the O1 immediately combines with water to form H2O2, which will react with silver metal. > .. scenerio # (2) > [+]ions are associated with the [-] end of a polarized water molecule > [hydration?] which also protects the cluster from being affected by free > oxygen. ["this site is taken"] which also pulls the silver electrons toward > the surface making the particle more repellent to other particles and the > ions less repellent to each other within the particle. The polarized water > basically holds the charged ions together and isolates them from other ions? Yes, in hydration the polar water molecules arrange themselves about the +ion(s) (cation) with the oxygen (negative end) facing the ion. Further shells of water molecules form about this initial layer until at the extreme the charge is neutralised. These layers provide protection against most collisions and travel with the ion. > Ion production rates and water activity [stirring and temperature] do seem > to be related in how large a particle agglomerates. If a high rate of ion > production is used with vigerous stirring, or a low production rate with > gentle stirring [thermal currents and/or hot active water], clear strong > CS is still possible... sometimes with little TE. Hydration takes time > and opportunity? Indeed. > High ion production rates without stirring almost always makes a colored > CS beyond about 5-10 PPM.. [More prevalent when using cool water even at > low rates] It may even 'appear' to be clear because there aren't that many > particles there... and some of the ions did get hydrated. > Low ion production rates give off a white ion cloud. > High production rates give off that famous golden cloud [see > ***???]...water being equal. Yes. > In scenerio #1, a yellow, more massive, less charged particle [internally > partially neutralized] can stick to a container and particles/crystals to > each other making a pretty thick coating. Perhaps Browian motion > contributes to a collision energetic enough to do this. [The CS water > itself becomes clear because most or all of the large colored particles are > stuck to the glass] > > Ken Ken, I would say that it is inevitable that some silver will plate out on the wall of the container considering the amount of collisions there must be. The fact that it is possible to clean these with H2O2 suggests that the deposits are uncharged silver metal. Ivan. > > At 11:43 PM 11/29/00 +1300, you wrote: > >Not at hand Marshall, > > > >But if atomic ions are all that are produced at the anode, then any > >clusters must be composed of these. The fractal clusters as postulated > >in 'An introduction to Colloid Science' By Hunter, are a loose and > >fairly open arrangement from what I can gather, and not at all like > >dense metallic crystals. Whether electron sharing occurs I don't know, > >but I should think that the electron orbits are offset towards the > >centre of the cluster, in reaction to the negative polar part of water > >molecules which will be arranged around them. In this way, it is likely > >that the centre of the cluster is more positive than the outside. > > > >Ivan. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Marshall Dudley" <[email protected]> > >To: <[email protected]> > >Sent: Wednesday, 29 November 2000 04:47 > >Subject: Re: CS>development work > > > > > >> Ivan Anderson wrote: > >> > >> > Ken, if you have been following my discussions at all, you will > >realise > >> > that I believe that clusters do indeed have a charge equal to the > >number > >> > of atoms it is comprised of. Seeing that electrons cannot swim... > >> > > >> > >> I agree if the cluster has all atoms on the surface. But for clusters > >that > >> have atoms hidden internally, I am not convinced that those internal > >> contribute to the charge. Do you have any references that address > >this? I > >> don't. > >> > >> Marshall > > > > > > > >--- > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.215 / Virus Database: 101 - Release Date: 16/11/2000 > > > > > >-- > >The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. > > > >To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: > >[email protected] -or- [email protected] > >with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. > > > >To post, address your message to: [email protected] > >Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html > >List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> > > > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.215 / Virus Database: 101 - Release Date: 17/11/2000
