> url: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m61928.html
> CS>SilverGen specs.
> From: Trem
> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:52:29
> Hi Mike,
> You just don't get it do you? To say that one cannot make high PPM
> CS using flat electrodes is completely incorrect. Our generators
> work perfectly with flat electrodes and I have some CS that is
> almost 3 years old that is 45 PPM and is still crystal clear.
> Stirring is what makes the difference and moving the ions away
> from the anode is paramount to making good CS. Your constant
> criticism of using flat electrodes is getting a bit irritating
> since you don't have any experience using them. I'll say it one
> last time..... our generators use flat electrodes and do NOT make
> yellow CS.
Hey Trem, cool it. I was going on the figures you posted in response
to my question, and Robert's measurements with flat plates.
You stated that the highest ppm you can achieve in your production
unit is 20 ppm, with a 20% fudge factor for oxide. That gives 16.7
ppm ionic.
Robert measured around 11 ppm with flat plates with no stirring. I
don't have time to look up the url's, but it's in the archives.
Ken's Silverpuppy runs at 24 ppm. Knowing the problems he has had
with you in the past on calibration solutions for the Hanna, and the
care he takes with the numbers he posts, I tend to believe him. So
that's 24 ppm for round 12 ga wire. A considerable improvement.
But now you now state you can make 45 ppm that is crystal clear. Why
didn't you say that before? And if you can, how soon can you put it
in production?
If you can make it, I'll buy it. Neither Ken nor myself can do that
with round 12 ga. But first you have to show me. Send me some and
I'll do a simple salt test and look at the dispersion:)
> And to say the using a MOSFET or series transistor may work better
> instead of a relay for shutdown is a bit presumptuous. Any leakage
> current can still allow current to flow in the cell. If one is not
> ready to completely shut the unit off at the completion of a cycle
> and there is some leakage, the PPM will continue to increase. A
> relay removes all current and voltage from the electrodes and is a
> much better choice as far as I am concerned. It is especially
> important to remove ALL voltage and current because many people
> are inclined to start their generator at night and have the CS
> ready in the morning or else start it in the morning before
> leaving for work or errands. At least one will be assured there
> will be no possible current flow after shutdown.
I did not say it would work better. I said it would also work.
Trem, here are my credentials: 31 years experience designing
precision instrumentation in high-volume disk manufacturing.
Invented a technique to measure the bit error rate of disk drives
that became a worldwide standard and saved the industry hundreds of
millions of dollars.
I have 6 patents issued. Here's my patent list:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/patents.htm
Latest invention is a new method of capturing wideband signals. It
is ten times more accurate and has ten times the throughput of
conventional sampling or digitizing scopes. I am in the process of
rewriting the entire description to show recent results, but here is
the current url:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/sampler/intro.htm
Your are correct, a bipolar or MOSFET switch does have leakage in
the off state. This can be in the nanoampere range.
With 2 gal of dw, this would add 2e-6 ppm per hour, which is a
totally insignificant amount.
A relay also has measurable leakage and cannot be used in some
sensitive circuits I design. But the greatest problem with leakage
currents is the pcb itself. Look up "guard ring".
The residual flux used in soldering can also be a major problem. If
you try to clean the pcb with alcohol, you can leave highly
conductive salts that cause a short between traces. When the
humidity gets high, this can cause an amazing amount of leakage. I
have measured resistances as low as 10kohm between two traces.
Again, I did not say a relay is bad. So cool it.
> And to say that a possible bit of static electricity or a possible
> spike can possibly skew the shutdown point is really stretching
> it. I cannot cause any of our units to shut down prematurely by
> running brush type motors such an electric drill near them. Come
> on....give it up. This isn't rocket science. A relatively simple,
> good design with good layout is all that's necessary. We have it.
It depends on where you set the ppm adjustment. If you set it to 5
ppm, nothing will affect it.
One thing you have in your favor is you are using an op amp as a
comparator. I was going to mention this, but I figured you had one
left over in a dual package, and why go to the added expense of
using a proper comparator?
However, the advantage the op amp gives you is it is very slow. So
it won't even see the noise transients on your long lead wires.
Chalk one up to Trem. You WON! Now go out and celebrate:)
> Regards,
> Trem Williams
Best Regards,
Mike Monett
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