Ode Coyote wrote: > ## Well sure. The questions pertain more towards what happens if the > silver ion 'doesn't' find a hydroxl ion and why, maybe, it's only a strong > tendency rather than a mandate. > If making stable compounds were an 'absolute mandate', the CS water > probably wouldn't have such a long unstable state. > > If a silver ion can 'associate and orientate' itself with the hydroxl > portion of a 'non' dissociated water molecule without actually making a > compound...that might could prevent a hydroxl ion from finding it to some > degree by hiding it's electron hole to some degree.
If you look at the process of making a silver ion, all charges must sum to 0. What that means is that when you strip an Ag+ off the wire, an OH- HAS to be made at the same time, or the charges will not sum to 0, and the solution will not be neutral. > > > OH is a gas? No, OH is a radical, it cannot exist without a corresponding Anion. Four OH- radicals can combine to form 2H2O and O2, with the necessary transfer of electrons between the OH and the anion. > Could it just bubble off to some extent, leaving 'some' > silver ions with nowhere to go, leaving them with choice #2. [Loose > association with an occupied OH vs tightly bonded compound with a > previously unoccupied OH]? No, OH- radical cannot exist alone. > > If AgO can be formed, apparently there are some O1 atoms running about > looking for something to do and they might not all do any one given > thing...same for the hydrogen? Not necessarily. 2AgOH could become Ag2O + H2O without any other substances taking part in the conversion. > > Could a Hydroxl ion 'Not' find a silver ion and get together with another > hydrogen atom to turn back into water as 'its' choice #2? > It is a sum 0 game. Water is continually dissassociating and reassociating all the time. That is what gives pure water a pH of 7. This takes place continusouly, disassociating, then reassociating. But a silver ion will have to associate with something, with a negative charge (OH- or O--) to maintain it's charge. Charges must sum to zero. > > It's my vauge and maybe erronious understanding that a silver particle can > accumulate a minus charge from the Zeta. It's probably not quite the same > as an ionic charge, but could that minus zeta be similar enough have a > stabilizing effect and attraction for a plus charged silver ion? I find this confusing as well. Frank Key is the one that has insisted that silver particles have a negative charge. I have reached the conclusion that what happens is that there is tendancy for the water molecules to be adsorbed onto the silver particles such that the OH tends to gain an electron and the silver tends to lose one. This is similar to a silver ion, but it is a clump of silver atoms in which the charge can move easily from one atom to the next. The result is that the particle ends up surrounded by OH- radicals, and since they are completely surrounding the positive charge of the silver particle, give an overall zeta viewed from the outside as negative, since that will be the surface charge. I am not sure of this at all though, but it is the only way I have been able to figure out how a silver particle can exhibit a negative zeta charge when measured macroscopically. > > If some ions are orienting towards an occupied OH in a water molecule and > are also attracting zeta charged metal, I see a sort of potential for a > 'charge protected' crystal lattice structure forming around a water > molecule as its nucleus...and another oriented varient using a silver oxide > molecule. I think you wil find the orientation to be water molecules or OH- radicals around the particle, not the other way around. Silver oxide, as long as it is below the solubility of Ag2O will dissolve, and will not form a particle at all. If it is over the solubility limit and forms any particles, they tend to precipitate out in short order. > > > Silver hydroxide is virtually insoluable in water [listed as > "insoluable"]...one of the few hydroxides that aren't extremely soluable in > water. If it's that insoluable, it doesn't seem likely to concentrate in > solution. The true solubility of silver hydroxide is 13.3 ppm from what I can determine. That makes it almost 15 times as soluable as silver chloride, and I believe tends to set an upper limit to the amount of ionic silver that can be in EIS without having long term stability problems. > > It's also stable enough that you can buy it in powder form. > That doesn't suggest spontanious conversions to silver oxide to me. I am unsure of what conditions cause silver hydroxide to become silver oxide. I was unaware one could purchase it. > > > Another thing that doesn't get mentioned much: > Many of the various deposits found in various places, regardless of color, > will leave a shiny silver smear when wiped onto a surface and there's that > silver slick that sometimes forms on top. There's definitely some metallic > silver running about. Silver plating can come from several possibilities. As you say, if you have a colloid and the particles precipitate out (or are left behind upon evaporation), then if you wipe it, it could form a shinny surface. Also you have the possibility of photo reductions, or Tollens solution type of reaction. Silver is a very difficult substance to follow all the possible things it may or may not do under a variety of conditions.. Marshall > > Ode > > At 03:17 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Ode Coyote wrote: > > > >> Dissolved Compounds still remain those compounds and don't change into > >> something else when the water is removed. > >> A free silver ion isn't likely to be very stable and very much wants to > >> share an electron with something. > > > >Solutions by their very nature are always neutral. If you have an Ag+ ion, > >there has to be a (-) ion to balance it. The two together will define the > >compound. For freshly made EIS the negative ion is the hydroxyl ion, IE OH-, > >so the silver compound in EIS is actually silver hydroxide. At higher > >concentrations, silver hydroxide tends to become unstable, and will > >spontaneouly convert to silver oxide. This could be part of the aging > process > >that occurs when EIS sits, not sure. > > > > >> > >> > >> Question: > >> Does it HAVE to "share", or can it's desires be passified as an 'onlooker' > >> or 'groupie', so to speak? > >> Can a free silver ion 'associate' [identify?] itself... around and with... > >> a water molecules opposite valence oxygen componant and become at least > >> 'more' stable without actually becoming a 'compound' made from out of that > >> water molecule? ...a protective attraction vs an absolute reaction.. > > > >A silver ion will tend to attact the OH portion of a water molecule, > producing > >silver hydroxide. The remaining H will find a matching one, and form H2 > which > >may remain dissolved or be outgassed over time. > > > >> > >> > >> Can a cluster of silver atoms that include one or more ions on it's surface > >> to present an ionic 'appearance' to the water molecules also be included in > >> such an attraction? > > > >A cluster of silver atoms do often obtain a charge. They are not ions per > say > >I don't believe but just a cluster with a charge. The charge is referred > to as > >the zeta when it is measured. The higher the charge or zeta, the more stable > >the colloidal portion is. If they have no charge, then they will precipitate. > > > >Marshall > > > >> > >> > >> Warning: Any in depth explanation one way or the other will probably > >> confuse me. > >> Simple answers? Yes, no , maybe sometimes? > >> > >> Ode > >> > >> -- > >> No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 > >> > >> -- > >> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. > >> > >> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org > >> > >> To post, address your message to: [email protected] > >> Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html > >> > >> Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected] > >> OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html > >> > >> List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005 > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
