What happened with the hair from Fabric Engine? I think I saw a video with its implementation in Softimage.
2014-02-14 8:46 GMT-06:00 Matt Morris <[email protected]>: > Kristinka and Melena both have guides / filler compounds and allows a > guide caching workflow, while filler compounds would be re-applied after > the sim. Procedurals would be lovely though. I'm looking at this right now, > would be great to hear some more opinions on which system would be better > if simulation has to be a regular part of the workflow. > > I'd love to see the best of both in a built in system, adapting the hair > sculpting tools to strands, with occlusion and mirroring added to the > painting tools, and sculpting using polygon shapes. > > > > > On 14 February 2014 10:16, Felix Geremus <[email protected]>wrote: > >> My problem with ICE based solutions is more on the caching & rendering >> side. You have to cache each and every strandpoint. With a million hairs >> and a few substeps for motionblur, cache files are gigantic. A good hair >> system should cache only cache the guides, the actual hair (and maybe even >> styles like small frizz etc) should be generated at rendertime with a >> procedural. As far as I know this is how Yeti and even Shave&Haircut in >> Maya works. >> >> >> 2014-02-14 6:52 GMT+01:00 Mathias N <[email protected]>: >> >> *) First off, it should be able to stand on it's own without ICE. >>> *) It should be ICE compliant >>> *)I toyed with the notion of a node graph like yeti's but from what i >>> could see of it so far, it is very linear, nowhere near as fun as ICE, so a >>> cool idea, for visualisation but i'd have to see a little more matured >>> version to be sold. >>> >>> I personally don't see much of a problem with integrating the system >>> with ICE, and with regards to simulation it would be very difficult to >>> separate while maintaining the same level of adaptability that ICE >>> provides. The Strand Dynamics Framework that ships with ICE is slow by >>> design, its limiting factor being the setup rather than ICE itself. A >>> proper simulation system within ICE would likely have to consist of a >>> single closed node that would not allow any customization beyond its >>> inputs, but it would still be favorable to trying to completely separate it. >>> >>> Take the Strand Collision Framework mentioned at the beginning of this >>> thread for instance. It was built on-top of the stock strand dynamics >>> framework, and separates the various phases of simulation into actual nodes >>> in ICE. It's decent, but attempting to keep everything separated and open >>> to modification proved to be a major flaw preventing it from ever really >>> working properly. >>> >>> *) It Should have its own unit, like a strand, guide or null, that >>> exists for this purpose. >>> >>> A given. >>> >>> *) UI integration. where would it live ? i'd love to see the sparsely >>> inhabited paint tools panel, be sectioned into 3 tabs, similar to the right >>> side, MCP/KP-L/PPG. >>> Tab 1: the original xsi paint tools, weight painting etc... >>> Tab 2:... maybe some sculpting tool implementations :P ? (for another >>> time !). >>> Tab 3: The new hair system panel, including as preliminary features: >>> >>> Being able to groom hair without being limited by mesh resolution is >>> pretty much a must. Weight maps are nice for animated effects, but their >>> reliance on mesh resolution is a pain. I see them as only remaining for >>> painting attributes that need to be animated. >>> >>> Also, sculpting tools? for hair? >>> >>> 2) A layer system like the "scene" one in the KP/L so you can have >>> separate hair systems on different hide-able reference-able layers, with >>> the addition of a slider enabling you to increase or decrees the number of >>> hairs shown in the viewport per layer. (this would allow you to rapidly >>> test incremental density simulations, on the fly without having to dive >>> into an ice tree or bring up a ppg ). >>> >>> So multiple layers of hair in the same point cloud? That's an >>> interesting thought, and certainly doable. >>> >>> 3) I'm a big fan of the M tool in SI, i love the 3 small grey icons that >>> appear at the bottom of the view port, (manipulate, magnet and weld) i just >>> wish it was customisable with even more tools ! >>> In this spirit i would like to have a small library of icons on the hair >>> system panel, icons for guide painting, and manipulation: paint/erase >>> grow/cut, brush/frizz,orient ...etc. i would like it to be possible to >>> click and drag these icons into a small tray on the viewport like the M >>> tool small grey icons. so you can have your own customizable loadout. >>> >>> As I am still looking at ICE integration as the holy grail here, meaning >>> strand guides and various attributes would be generated by the plugin and >>> output to ICE, where they could be utilized by any number of nodes. I >>> suppose the only solution that would satisfy this requirement is to build >>> another interface that ... interfaces with an ICE tree to make the >>> necessary connections. This would allow for an "artist friendly" solution >>> while maintaining the adaptability of ICE. >>> >>> 4) Convert To: a series of utilities that allow you to convert elements, >>> primitives or meshes, into hair guides; so you can choose to draw a curve >>> and then click "convert to" guides or strands, upon which you get prompted >>> to choose an existing layer to add to, or to create a layer for this new >>> hair element. if you choose a mesh like a rectangle, it would give you the >>> options on how you would like the hairs to populate the inside of the mesh, >>> by length? what density? etc... >>> >>> The idea of a hairMesh is a popular one, and relatively simple by >>> design. Integrating it with a complete hair solution is slight more tricky. >>> I suppose standard guide generation on the whole mesh followed by selecting >>> a face to serve as the base layer for a hair mesh to be extruded outwards, >>> with the guides within that face being replaced by guides generated by the >>> mesh. >>> >>> Simulation of a hairMesh would also be tricky business, but combining an >>> off-the-shelf solution (say, syflex) with per-strand simulation might make >>> for some interesting results. >>> >>> >>> *takes notes* >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 3:48 AM, Sebastien Sterling < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't feel qualified to dictate the software needs of everything and >>>> everyone in the industry, i might expand a bit on what i'd like to see from >>>> such a system. >>>> >>>> For a hair system ? >>>> >>>> *) First off, it should be able to stand on it's own without ICE. >>>> >>>> *) it should probably work on its own engine (like yeti, i assume). >>>> >>>> *) If it has its own engine, it should be open so as to offer TD's and >>>> Dev's the freedom and space they need to solve problems and expand tools or >>>> implement new tools. (this point is more a given, TD's and Dev's should >>>> always be facilitated in this regard). >>>> >>>> *) It Should have its own unit, like a strand, guide or null, that >>>> exists for this purpose. >>>> >>>> *)It should be tablet compatible, as in stylus, pen pressure, all that >>>> jazz. >>>> >>>> *) It should be ICE compliant ; stand on it's own yes, but that should >>>> not subject isolated from ICE, it's too good a tool to be ignored. Ideally, >>>> a relationship where ICE is less of a crutch and more of a third arm. e.g >>>> The proprietary Guides/strands/units can be brought into ICE as data, so if >>>> you where making a wood nymph, and you wanted to make flowers bloom from >>>> the tips of her hair: all this managed through ICE. Listening to Paul >>>> Smith, in his demo of FUZZ, he says that strand collisions are very slow. >>>> So regarding hair, ICE would be more an aesthetics effects base tool then a >>>> physics engine, the actual simulation being taken care of by the hair >>>> systems dedicated engine. so yes as much compliance between the two systems >>>> as possible. >>>> >>>> *) UI integration. where would it live ? i'd love to see the sparsely >>>> inhabited paint tools panel, be sectioned into 3 tabs, similar to the right >>>> side, MCP/KP-L/PPG. >>>> >>>> Tab 1: the original xsi paint tools, weight painting etc... >>>> >>>> Tab 2:... maybe some sculpting tool implementations :P ? (for another >>>> time !). >>>> >>>> Tab 3: The new hair system panel, including as preliminary features: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1) A stylus pressure segment with curve profile. >>>> >>>> 2) A layer system like the "scene" one in the KP/L so you can have >>>> separate hair systems on different hide-able reference-able layers, with >>>> the addition of a slider enabling you to increase or decrees the number of >>>> hairs shown in the viewport per layer. (this would allow you to rapidly >>>> test incremental density simulations, on the fly without having to dive >>>> into an ice tree or bring up a ppg ). >>>> >>>> 3) I'm a big fan of the M tool in SI, i love the 3 small grey icons >>>> that appear at the bottom of the view port, (manipulate, magnet and weld) i >>>> just wish it was customisable with even more tools ! >>>> >>>> In this spirit i would like to have a small library of icons on the >>>> hair system panel, icons for guide painting, and manipulation: paint/erase >>>> grow/cut, brush/frizz,orient ...etc. i would like it to be possible to >>>> click and drag these icons into a small tray on the viewport like the M >>>> tool small grey icons. so you can have your own customizable loadout. >>>> >>>> 4) Convert To: a series of utilities that allow you to convert >>>> elements, primitives or meshes, into hair guides; so you can choose to draw >>>> a curve and then click "convert to" guides or strands, upon which you get >>>> prompted to choose an existing layer to add to, or to create a layer for >>>> this new hair element. if you choose a mesh like a rectangle, it would give >>>> you the options on how you would like the hairs to populate the inside of >>>> the mesh, by length? what density? etc... >>>> >>>> note: if you convert to a guide, them the elements will become guides, >>>> if you choose convert to strand then the elements will become hair in witch >>>> ever layer you put them, influenced by the closest guide on that layer. >>>> >>>> >>>> And that's it, these are some of the things i would like to see in a >>>> "heavier" hair system. >>>> >>>> >>>> I toyed with the notion of a node graph like yeti's but from what i >>>> could see of it so far, it is very linear, nowhere near as fun as ICE, so a >>>> cool idea, for visualisation but i'd have to see a little more matured >>>> version to be sold. >>>> >>>> i doubt anyone will ever implement any of this, this is just a lot of >>>> pipe dreaming, but that is my answer. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14 February 2014 00:51, Mathias N <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sticking with the idea of a complete solution within Softimage, what >>>>> would your definition of heavier be? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I saw that the first day it was up Eddie >>>>>> >>>>>> And as jawdroppingly cool as it is, i have a feeling we are going to >>>>>> need something a little heavier to go forward. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14 February 2014 00:01, Ed Manning <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> https://vimeo.com/80382153 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A new hair system is kinda over due. :( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12 February 2014 16:54, Luc Girard <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Tim, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for the way you mentioned our projects :) . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would like to chime in and say that we, at Shed, are also >>>>>>>>> looking at hair solutions actively. Our solution based on Kristinka >>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>> the job but it is very far from being an out of the box solution and >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> requires a lot of RnD to maintain as it not supported by AD. If a >>>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>>> pops up, with substeps motion blur per example, we are left to our own >>>>>>>>> devices. We usually prevail but we end up spending nearly 50% of the >>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>> on technical details vs real look dev. I thought you should know :). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >From what I've seen around, Yeti seems to be a good contender but >>>>>>>>> I've yet to do a full production setup with it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good luck in your search ! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Luc Girard // SHED >>>>>>>>> VFX artist >>>>>>>>> 1410, RUE STANLEY, 11E ÉTAGE MONTRÉAL (QUÉBEC) H3A 1P8 >>>>>>>>> T 514 849-1555 F 514 849-5025 WWW.SHEDMTL.COM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Tim >>>>>>>>> Leydecker >>>>>>>>> Sent: 8 février 2014 07:26 >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Softimage Hair options? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for this in-depth answer! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Personally, I´m starting to lean towards going for the trial of >>>>>>>>> Yeti, one reason being that I think I remember Colin Doncaster´s name >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> another maya maling list and another because of the really nice sample >>>>>>>>> image of a bear posted by Yolandi Meiring in a similar thread here: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (Thread) >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/2erKqUcghpI >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (Image) >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/xsi_list/attach/994086131ca9460/bear_still.jpg?part=4&view=1 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Another really nice one is a proof of concept of bringing (3dsMax) >>>>>>>>> hair-farm into Softimage from Lee-Perry Smith, with props to Dani >>>>>>>>> Garcia >>>>>>>>> and Steven Caron. >>>>>>>>> That human hairdo and it´s renderings look incredibly awesome. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://ir-ltd.net/hair-farm-hair-into-softimage/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For a Melena/Kristinka workflow using Anto Matkovic´s tools in >>>>>>>>> those beautiful shed projects there´s a nice clip posted by/on Lester >>>>>>>>> Banks >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lesterbanks.com/2013/05/workflow-tips-for-creating-and-grooming-hair-in-softimage/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have only limited amounts of time I can spend on this and need >>>>>>>>> to find something that has potential to be useable for testing >>>>>>>>> Redshift´s >>>>>>>>> hair shading approach when applicable but ideally integrates >>>>>>>>> seamlessly >>>>>>>>> into either Maya/Max/Softimage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The combination of Maya+Redshift is allready working very well and >>>>>>>>> it seems it´ll be easier to successfully migrate from simple hair/fur >>>>>>>>> testing to something actually looking good (using yeti). Also, yeti >>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>> variety of licensing options I might find atractive at a later date if >>>>>>>>> tempted to actually finish something beyond spare-time doodling. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I´d prefer Softimage but if that stuff works better in Maya, it´ll >>>>>>>>> be Maya. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I suck with Max, even the fastest and most intuitive plugin can´t >>>>>>>>> compensate that sad fact. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> tim >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 08.02.2014 12:57, Stefan Kubicek wrote: >>>>>>>>> > Hi Tim, >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > I've just been dealing with hair an a hamster and used the >>>>>>>>> built-in hair&fur of Softimage /2014SP2). >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > A few tips about working with built-in hair: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Avoid too dense meshes. It creates a guide hair for every vertex, >>>>>>>>> > hence dense meshes make you fiddle with lots and lots of guide >>>>>>>>> hair strands manually, which can be counter-productive and -intuitive. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > If you want to edit hair parameters on a per vertex basis (via >>>>>>>>> vertex >>>>>>>>> > colors), you need to plan ahead where exactly you want your hair >>>>>>>>> to be and where you want certain features (transparency, density, >>>>>>>>> kink & >>>>>>>>> frizz) to change and over which distance/area. This is especially >>>>>>>>> important >>>>>>>>> for areas like hand and feet, as well as nose & eye lids. >>>>>>>>> > So, before you move the mesh into skinning/rigging, you better >>>>>>>>> make sure your topology works not only for animation but also for the >>>>>>>>> hair >>>>>>>>> setup you have in mind. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Don't rely on the built-in style transfer functionality. It does >>>>>>>>> > mostly work but has a tendency to "blur" the transferred hair >>>>>>>>> style, even if your source and target emitter topology are the same. >>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> need to move in again and reintroduce details in the fur that got >>>>>>>>> lost. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > If you want to simulate hair with collision don't use a subd >>>>>>>>> mesh as >>>>>>>>> > the emitter. The docs say that having hair emitted from a subd >>>>>>>>> mesh >>>>>>>>> > cannot collide with its own emitter, so you have to duplicate the >>>>>>>>> > source mesh and subdivide it for real (that is, create more >>>>>>>>> actual >>>>>>>>> > polygons) and use that as the collision object. That would still >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> > acceptable, if it worked, which it does not. What I found after >>>>>>>>> > tedious testing was that any collision testing fails when your >>>>>>>>> emitter is a subd mesh, independent of what you have it collide with >>>>>>>>> (itself or another mesh), which kinda sucks and is the biggest >>>>>>>>> problem I >>>>>>>>> ran into for which I could not find a solution. Thankfully my fur was >>>>>>>>> rather short and the character had a lot of secondary motion, so it >>>>>>>>> looks >>>>>>>>> alife enough (besides some problems when bending arms, which are >>>>>>>>> hardly >>>>>>>>> noticeable in the animation in my case). From what I can tell it >>>>>>>>> looks like >>>>>>>>> collision is always computed against a simplified collision sphere >>>>>>>>> representation of the collision object, no matter what you set for >>>>>>>>> collision accuracy and shape, deforming shape, etc. It just doesn't >>>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>>> at least not for me. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Sometimes, when saving and reloading a scene some hair strands >>>>>>>>> (like 1 >>>>>>>>> > out of 1000) would suddenly stick in some random direction. I >>>>>>>>> had the impression that it helps to always collapse the modeling stack >>>>>>>>> before saving, at least it never occurred again in final stages of >>>>>>>>> production when the fur description was final and not changed anymore. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Next time I will surely look at Kristinka or Melena. AS for >>>>>>>>> > simulation...I believe there was a Strand Simulation framework >>>>>>>>> with self collision introduced on softimage.tv some weeks ago >>>>>>>>> that looked promising, I haven't heard of ne1 using it for hair so >>>>>>>>> far, >>>>>>>>> mayb someone else can comment on that? Would love to hear some ideas >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> this as well. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Good luck, >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Stefan >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > Hi guys, >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> what would be a convenient way to create,style and control hair >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> >> Softimage, with lengths up to 10-12 inches and ideally both a >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>> >> collision model and dedicated styling tools? >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> Which Softimage version would you suggest, e.g. 2014sp2? >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> I´m a novice with hair and fur but would like to set up a >>>>>>>>> manageable >>>>>>>>> >> sample/test that ideally works with Arnold and Redshift. >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> Is it possible to work generic or transfer results from, say >>>>>>>>> Yeti >>>>>>>>> >> into Softimage? >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> Would you recommend actually leaning towards Maya for such a >>>>>>>>> task, >>>>>>>>> >> either going directly to Yeti or similar? >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> I know those are fuzzy questions, I guess I´m actually looking >>>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>>> >> biased answer regarding any of the various hair plugin options >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> >> any of the major three apps, e.g. max/maya/softimage. >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> Sofar, I´ve found the following options: >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> hairfarm, yeti, ornatrix, shave&haircut, maya hair, maya xgen >>>>>>>>> "hair" >>>>>>>>> >> in 2014ext and the cinema4d hair options (shadowmapped). >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> Admittedly, that´s a lot of options and I find it difficult to >>>>>>>>> bet my >>>>>>>>> >> time-investment onto any of them since I simply know bling >>>>>>>>> about pro´s or con´s. >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> tim >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > -- > www.matinai.com >
