They bricked it for the moment, according to Paul.
On 14 February 2014 17:18, Emilio Hernandez <[email protected]> wrote: > What happened with the hair from Fabric Engine? I think I saw a video > with its implementation in Softimage. > > > > > > > 2014-02-14 8:46 GMT-06:00 Matt Morris <[email protected]>: > > Kristinka and Melena both have guides / filler compounds and allows a >> guide caching workflow, while filler compounds would be re-applied after >> the sim. Procedurals would be lovely though. I'm looking at this right now, >> would be great to hear some more opinions on which system would be better >> if simulation has to be a regular part of the workflow. >> >> I'd love to see the best of both in a built in system, adapting the hair >> sculpting tools to strands, with occlusion and mirroring added to the >> painting tools, and sculpting using polygon shapes. >> >> >> >> >> On 14 February 2014 10:16, Felix Geremus <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> My problem with ICE based solutions is more on the caching & rendering >>> side. You have to cache each and every strandpoint. With a million hairs >>> and a few substeps for motionblur, cache files are gigantic. A good hair >>> system should cache only cache the guides, the actual hair (and maybe even >>> styles like small frizz etc) should be generated at rendertime with a >>> procedural. As far as I know this is how Yeti and even Shave&Haircut in >>> Maya works. >>> >>> >>> 2014-02-14 6:52 GMT+01:00 Mathias N <[email protected]>: >>> >>> *) First off, it should be able to stand on it's own without ICE. >>>> *) It should be ICE compliant >>>> *)I toyed with the notion of a node graph like yeti's but from what i >>>> could see of it so far, it is very linear, nowhere near as fun as ICE, so a >>>> cool idea, for visualisation but i'd have to see a little more matured >>>> version to be sold. >>>> >>>> I personally don't see much of a problem with integrating the system >>>> with ICE, and with regards to simulation it would be very difficult to >>>> separate while maintaining the same level of adaptability that ICE >>>> provides. The Strand Dynamics Framework that ships with ICE is slow by >>>> design, its limiting factor being the setup rather than ICE itself. A >>>> proper simulation system within ICE would likely have to consist of a >>>> single closed node that would not allow any customization beyond its >>>> inputs, but it would still be favorable to trying to completely separate >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Take the Strand Collision Framework mentioned at the beginning of this >>>> thread for instance. It was built on-top of the stock strand dynamics >>>> framework, and separates the various phases of simulation into actual nodes >>>> in ICE. It's decent, but attempting to keep everything separated and open >>>> to modification proved to be a major flaw preventing it from ever really >>>> working properly. >>>> >>>> *) It Should have its own unit, like a strand, guide or null, that >>>> exists for this purpose. >>>> >>>> A given. >>>> >>>> *) UI integration. where would it live ? i'd love to see the sparsely >>>> inhabited paint tools panel, be sectioned into 3 tabs, similar to the right >>>> side, MCP/KP-L/PPG. >>>> Tab 1: the original xsi paint tools, weight painting etc... >>>> Tab 2:... maybe some sculpting tool implementations :P ? (for another >>>> time !). >>>> Tab 3: The new hair system panel, including as preliminary features: >>>> >>>> Being able to groom hair without being limited by mesh resolution is >>>> pretty much a must. Weight maps are nice for animated effects, but their >>>> reliance on mesh resolution is a pain. I see them as only remaining for >>>> painting attributes that need to be animated. >>>> >>>> Also, sculpting tools? for hair? >>>> >>>> 2) A layer system like the "scene" one in the KP/L so you can have >>>> separate hair systems on different hide-able reference-able layers, with >>>> the addition of a slider enabling you to increase or decrees the number of >>>> hairs shown in the viewport per layer. (this would allow you to rapidly >>>> test incremental density simulations, on the fly without having to dive >>>> into an ice tree or bring up a ppg ). >>>> >>>> So multiple layers of hair in the same point cloud? That's an >>>> interesting thought, and certainly doable. >>>> >>>> 3) I'm a big fan of the M tool in SI, i love the 3 small grey icons >>>> that appear at the bottom of the view port, (manipulate, magnet and weld) i >>>> just wish it was customisable with even more tools ! >>>> In this spirit i would like to have a small library of icons on the >>>> hair system panel, icons for guide painting, and manipulation: paint/erase >>>> grow/cut, brush/frizz,orient ...etc. i would like it to be possible to >>>> click and drag these icons into a small tray on the viewport like the M >>>> tool small grey icons. so you can have your own customizable loadout. >>>> >>>> As I am still looking at ICE integration as the holy grail here, >>>> meaning strand guides and various attributes would be generated by the >>>> plugin and output to ICE, where they could be utilized by any number of >>>> nodes. I suppose the only solution that would satisfy this requirement is >>>> to build another interface that ... interfaces with an ICE tree to make the >>>> necessary connections. This would allow for an "artist friendly" solution >>>> while maintaining the adaptability of ICE. >>>> >>>> 4) Convert To: a series of utilities that allow you to convert >>>> elements, primitives or meshes, into hair guides; so you can choose to draw >>>> a curve and then click "convert to" guides or strands, upon which you get >>>> prompted to choose an existing layer to add to, or to create a layer for >>>> this new hair element. if you choose a mesh like a rectangle, it would give >>>> you the options on how you would like the hairs to populate the inside of >>>> the mesh, by length? what density? etc... >>>> >>>> The idea of a hairMesh is a popular one, and relatively simple by >>>> design. Integrating it with a complete hair solution is slight more tricky. >>>> I suppose standard guide generation on the whole mesh followed by selecting >>>> a face to serve as the base layer for a hair mesh to be extruded outwards, >>>> with the guides within that face being replaced by guides generated by the >>>> mesh. >>>> >>>> Simulation of a hairMesh would also be tricky business, but combining >>>> an off-the-shelf solution (say, syflex) with per-strand simulation might >>>> make for some interesting results. >>>> >>>> >>>> *takes notes* >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 3:48 AM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't feel qualified to dictate the software needs of everything and >>>>> everyone in the industry, i might expand a bit on what i'd like to see >>>>> from >>>>> such a system. >>>>> >>>>> For a hair system ? >>>>> >>>>> *) First off, it should be able to stand on it's own without ICE. >>>>> >>>>> *) it should probably work on its own engine (like yeti, i assume). >>>>> >>>>> *) If it has its own engine, it should be open so as to offer TD's and >>>>> Dev's the freedom and space they need to solve problems and expand tools >>>>> or >>>>> implement new tools. (this point is more a given, TD's and Dev's should >>>>> always be facilitated in this regard). >>>>> >>>>> *) It Should have its own unit, like a strand, guide or null, that >>>>> exists for this purpose. >>>>> >>>>> *)It should be tablet compatible, as in stylus, pen pressure, all that >>>>> jazz. >>>>> >>>>> *) It should be ICE compliant ; stand on it's own yes, but that should >>>>> not subject isolated from ICE, it's too good a tool to be ignored. >>>>> Ideally, >>>>> a relationship where ICE is less of a crutch and more of a third arm. e.g >>>>> The proprietary Guides/strands/units can be brought into ICE as data, so >>>>> if >>>>> you where making a wood nymph, and you wanted to make flowers bloom from >>>>> the tips of her hair: all this managed through ICE. Listening to Paul >>>>> Smith, in his demo of FUZZ, he says that strand collisions are very slow. >>>>> So regarding hair, ICE would be more an aesthetics effects base tool then >>>>> a >>>>> physics engine, the actual simulation being taken care of by the hair >>>>> systems dedicated engine. so yes as much compliance between the two >>>>> systems >>>>> as possible. >>>>> >>>>> *) UI integration. where would it live ? i'd love to see the sparsely >>>>> inhabited paint tools panel, be sectioned into 3 tabs, similar to the >>>>> right >>>>> side, MCP/KP-L/PPG. >>>>> >>>>> Tab 1: the original xsi paint tools, weight painting etc... >>>>> >>>>> Tab 2:... maybe some sculpting tool implementations :P ? (for another >>>>> time !). >>>>> >>>>> Tab 3: The new hair system panel, including as preliminary features: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1) A stylus pressure segment with curve profile. >>>>> >>>>> 2) A layer system like the "scene" one in the KP/L so you can have >>>>> separate hair systems on different hide-able reference-able layers, with >>>>> the addition of a slider enabling you to increase or decrees the number of >>>>> hairs shown in the viewport per layer. (this would allow you to rapidly >>>>> test incremental density simulations, on the fly without having to dive >>>>> into an ice tree or bring up a ppg ). >>>>> >>>>> 3) I'm a big fan of the M tool in SI, i love the 3 small grey icons >>>>> that appear at the bottom of the view port, (manipulate, magnet and weld) >>>>> i >>>>> just wish it was customisable with even more tools ! >>>>> >>>>> In this spirit i would like to have a small library of icons on the >>>>> hair system panel, icons for guide painting, and manipulation: paint/erase >>>>> grow/cut, brush/frizz,orient ...etc. i would like it to be possible to >>>>> click and drag these icons into a small tray on the viewport like the M >>>>> tool small grey icons. so you can have your own customizable loadout. >>>>> >>>>> 4) Convert To: a series of utilities that allow you to convert >>>>> elements, primitives or meshes, into hair guides; so you can choose to >>>>> draw >>>>> a curve and then click "convert to" guides or strands, upon which you get >>>>> prompted to choose an existing layer to add to, or to create a layer for >>>>> this new hair element. if you choose a mesh like a rectangle, it would >>>>> give >>>>> you the options on how you would like the hairs to populate the inside of >>>>> the mesh, by length? what density? etc... >>>>> >>>>> note: if you convert to a guide, them the elements will become guides, >>>>> if you choose convert to strand then the elements will become hair in >>>>> witch >>>>> ever layer you put them, influenced by the closest guide on that layer. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And that's it, these are some of the things i would like to see in a >>>>> "heavier" hair system. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I toyed with the notion of a node graph like yeti's but from what i >>>>> could see of it so far, it is very linear, nowhere near as fun as ICE, so >>>>> a >>>>> cool idea, for visualisation but i'd have to see a little more matured >>>>> version to be sold. >>>>> >>>>> i doubt anyone will ever implement any of this, this is just a lot of >>>>> pipe dreaming, but that is my answer. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14 February 2014 00:51, Mathias N <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Sticking with the idea of a complete solution within Softimage, what >>>>>> would your definition of heavier be? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I saw that the first day it was up Eddie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And as jawdroppingly cool as it is, i have a feeling we are going to >>>>>>> need something a little heavier to go forward. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14 February 2014 00:01, Ed Manning <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://vimeo.com/80382153 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A new hair system is kinda over due. :( >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 12 February 2014 16:54, Luc Girard <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Tim, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the way you mentioned our projects :) . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would like to chime in and say that we, at Shed, are also >>>>>>>>>> looking at hair solutions actively. Our solution based on Kristinka >>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>> the job but it is very far from being an out of the box solution and >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> requires a lot of RnD to maintain as it not supported by AD. If a >>>>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>>>> pops up, with substeps motion blur per example, we are left to our >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> devices. We usually prevail but we end up spending nearly 50% of the >>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>> on technical details vs real look dev. I thought you should know :). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >From what I've seen around, Yeti seems to be a good contender >>>>>>>>>> but I've yet to do a full production setup with it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Good luck in your search ! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Luc Girard // SHED >>>>>>>>>> VFX artist >>>>>>>>>> 1410, RUE STANLEY, 11E ÉTAGE MONTRÉAL (QUÉBEC) H3A 1P8 >>>>>>>>>> T 514 849-1555 F 514 849-5025 WWW.SHEDMTL.COM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Tim >>>>>>>>>> Leydecker >>>>>>>>>> Sent: 8 février 2014 07:26 >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Softimage Hair options? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for this in-depth answer! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Personally, I´m starting to lean towards going for the trial of >>>>>>>>>> Yeti, one reason being that I think I remember Colin Doncaster´s >>>>>>>>>> name from >>>>>>>>>> another maya maling list and another because of the really nice >>>>>>>>>> sample >>>>>>>>>> image of a bear posted by Yolandi Meiring in a similar thread here: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (Thread) >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/2erKqUcghpI >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (Image) >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/xsi_list/attach/994086131ca9460/bear_still.jpg?part=4&view=1 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Another really nice one is a proof of concept of bringing >>>>>>>>>> (3dsMax) hair-farm into Softimage from Lee-Perry Smith, with props >>>>>>>>>> to Dani >>>>>>>>>> Garcia and Steven Caron. >>>>>>>>>> That human hairdo and it´s renderings look incredibly awesome. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://ir-ltd.net/hair-farm-hair-into-softimage/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For a Melena/Kristinka workflow using Anto Matkovic´s tools in >>>>>>>>>> those beautiful shed projects there´s a nice clip posted by/on >>>>>>>>>> Lester Banks >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://lesterbanks.com/2013/05/workflow-tips-for-creating-and-grooming-hair-in-softimage/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have only limited amounts of time I can spend on this and need >>>>>>>>>> to find something that has potential to be useable for testing >>>>>>>>>> Redshift´s >>>>>>>>>> hair shading approach when applicable but ideally integrates >>>>>>>>>> seamlessly >>>>>>>>>> into either Maya/Max/Softimage. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The combination of Maya+Redshift is allready working very well >>>>>>>>>> and it seems it´ll be easier to successfully migrate from simple >>>>>>>>>> hair/fur >>>>>>>>>> testing to something actually looking good (using yeti). Also, yeti >>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>> variety of licensing options I might find atractive at a later date >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>> tempted to actually finish something beyond spare-time doodling. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I´d prefer Softimage but if that stuff works better in Maya, >>>>>>>>>> it´ll be Maya. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I suck with Max, even the fastest and most intuitive plugin can´t >>>>>>>>>> compensate that sad fact. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> tim >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 08.02.2014 12:57, Stefan Kubicek wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > Hi Tim, >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > I've just been dealing with hair an a hamster and used the >>>>>>>>>> built-in hair&fur of Softimage /2014SP2). >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > A few tips about working with built-in hair: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Avoid too dense meshes. It creates a guide hair for every >>>>>>>>>> vertex, >>>>>>>>>> > hence dense meshes make you fiddle with lots and lots of guide >>>>>>>>>> hair strands manually, which can be counter-productive and >>>>>>>>>> -intuitive. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > If you want to edit hair parameters on a per vertex basis (via >>>>>>>>>> vertex >>>>>>>>>> > colors), you need to plan ahead where exactly you want your >>>>>>>>>> hair to be and where you want certain features (transparency, >>>>>>>>>> density, kink >>>>>>>>>> & frizz) to change and over which distance/area. This is especially >>>>>>>>>> important for areas like hand and feet, as well as nose & eye lids. >>>>>>>>>> > So, before you move the mesh into skinning/rigging, you better >>>>>>>>>> make sure your topology works not only for animation but also for >>>>>>>>>> the hair >>>>>>>>>> setup you have in mind. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Don't rely on the built-in style transfer functionality. It does >>>>>>>>>> > mostly work but has a tendency to "blur" the transferred hair >>>>>>>>>> style, even if your source and target emitter topology are the same. >>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> need to move in again and reintroduce details in the fur that got >>>>>>>>>> lost. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > If you want to simulate hair with collision don't use a subd >>>>>>>>>> mesh as >>>>>>>>>> > the emitter. The docs say that having hair emitted from a subd >>>>>>>>>> mesh >>>>>>>>>> > cannot collide with its own emitter, so you have to duplicate >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> > source mesh and subdivide it for real (that is, create more >>>>>>>>>> actual >>>>>>>>>> > polygons) and use that as the collision object. That would >>>>>>>>>> still be >>>>>>>>>> > acceptable, if it worked, which it does not. What I found after >>>>>>>>>> > tedious testing was that any collision testing fails when your >>>>>>>>>> emitter is a subd mesh, independent of what you have it collide with >>>>>>>>>> (itself or another mesh), which kinda sucks and is the biggest >>>>>>>>>> problem I >>>>>>>>>> ran into for which I could not find a solution. Thankfully my fur was >>>>>>>>>> rather short and the character had a lot of secondary motion, so it >>>>>>>>>> looks >>>>>>>>>> alife enough (besides some problems when bending arms, which are >>>>>>>>>> hardly >>>>>>>>>> noticeable in the animation in my case). From what I can tell it >>>>>>>>>> looks like >>>>>>>>>> collision is always computed against a simplified collision sphere >>>>>>>>>> representation of the collision object, no matter what you set for >>>>>>>>>> collision accuracy and shape, deforming shape, etc. It just doesn't >>>>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>>>> at least not for me. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Sometimes, when saving and reloading a scene some hair strands >>>>>>>>>> (like 1 >>>>>>>>>> > out of 1000) would suddenly stick in some random direction. I >>>>>>>>>> had the impression that it helps to always collapse the modeling >>>>>>>>>> stack >>>>>>>>>> before saving, at least it never occurred again in final stages of >>>>>>>>>> production when the fur description was final and not changed >>>>>>>>>> anymore. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Next time I will surely look at Kristinka or Melena. AS for >>>>>>>>>> > simulation...I believe there was a Strand Simulation framework >>>>>>>>>> with self collision introduced on softimage.tv some weeks ago >>>>>>>>>> that looked promising, I haven't heard of ne1 using it for hair so >>>>>>>>>> far, >>>>>>>>>> mayb someone else can comment on that? Would love to hear some ideas >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> this as well. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Good luck, >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Stefan >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > Hi guys, >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> what would be a convenient way to create,style and control >>>>>>>>>> hair in >>>>>>>>>> >> Softimage, with lengths up to 10-12 inches and ideally both a >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> >> collision model and dedicated styling tools? >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Which Softimage version would you suggest, e.g. 2014sp2? >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I´m a novice with hair and fur but would like to set up a >>>>>>>>>> manageable >>>>>>>>>> >> sample/test that ideally works with Arnold and Redshift. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Is it possible to work generic or transfer results from, say >>>>>>>>>> Yeti >>>>>>>>>> >> into Softimage? >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Would you recommend actually leaning towards Maya for such a >>>>>>>>>> task, >>>>>>>>>> >> either going directly to Yeti or similar? >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I know those are fuzzy questions, I guess I´m actually looking >>>>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>>>> >> biased answer regarding any of the various hair plugin options >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> >> any of the major three apps, e.g. max/maya/softimage. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Sofar, I´ve found the following options: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> hairfarm, yeti, ornatrix, shave&haircut, maya hair, maya xgen >>>>>>>>>> "hair" >>>>>>>>>> >> in 2014ext and the cinema4d hair options (shadowmapped). >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Admittedly, that´s a lot of options and I find it difficult to >>>>>>>>>> bet my >>>>>>>>>> >> time-investment onto any of them since I simply know bling >>>>>>>>>> about pro´s or con´s. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> tim >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> www.matinai.com >> > >
