Ufff.. Sorry to hear that. It was looking very promising...
2014-02-14 11:01 GMT-06:00 Sebastien Sterling <[email protected]> : > They bricked it for the moment, according to Paul. > > > On 14 February 2014 17:18, Emilio Hernandez <[email protected]> wrote: > >> What happened with the hair from Fabric Engine? I think I saw a video >> with its implementation in Softimage. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2014-02-14 8:46 GMT-06:00 Matt Morris <[email protected]>: >> >> Kristinka and Melena both have guides / filler compounds and allows a >>> guide caching workflow, while filler compounds would be re-applied after >>> the sim. Procedurals would be lovely though. I'm looking at this right now, >>> would be great to hear some more opinions on which system would be better >>> if simulation has to be a regular part of the workflow. >>> >>> I'd love to see the best of both in a built in system, adapting the hair >>> sculpting tools to strands, with occlusion and mirroring added to the >>> painting tools, and sculpting using polygon shapes. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14 February 2014 10:16, Felix Geremus <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> My problem with ICE based solutions is more on the caching & rendering >>>> side. You have to cache each and every strandpoint. With a million hairs >>>> and a few substeps for motionblur, cache files are gigantic. A good hair >>>> system should cache only cache the guides, the actual hair (and maybe even >>>> styles like small frizz etc) should be generated at rendertime with a >>>> procedural. As far as I know this is how Yeti and even Shave&Haircut in >>>> Maya works. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-02-14 6:52 GMT+01:00 Mathias N <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>> *) First off, it should be able to stand on it's own without ICE. >>>>> *) It should be ICE compliant >>>>> *)I toyed with the notion of a node graph like yeti's but from what i >>>>> could see of it so far, it is very linear, nowhere near as fun as ICE, so >>>>> a >>>>> cool idea, for visualisation but i'd have to see a little more matured >>>>> version to be sold. >>>>> >>>>> I personally don't see much of a problem with integrating the system >>>>> with ICE, and with regards to simulation it would be very difficult to >>>>> separate while maintaining the same level of adaptability that ICE >>>>> provides. The Strand Dynamics Framework that ships with ICE is slow by >>>>> design, its limiting factor being the setup rather than ICE itself. A >>>>> proper simulation system within ICE would likely have to consist of a >>>>> single closed node that would not allow any customization beyond its >>>>> inputs, but it would still be favorable to trying to completely separate >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> Take the Strand Collision Framework mentioned at the beginning of this >>>>> thread for instance. It was built on-top of the stock strand dynamics >>>>> framework, and separates the various phases of simulation into actual >>>>> nodes >>>>> in ICE. It's decent, but attempting to keep everything separated and open >>>>> to modification proved to be a major flaw preventing it from ever really >>>>> working properly. >>>>> >>>>> *) It Should have its own unit, like a strand, guide or null, that >>>>> exists for this purpose. >>>>> >>>>> A given. >>>>> >>>>> *) UI integration. where would it live ? i'd love to see the sparsely >>>>> inhabited paint tools panel, be sectioned into 3 tabs, similar to the >>>>> right >>>>> side, MCP/KP-L/PPG. >>>>> Tab 1: the original xsi paint tools, weight painting etc... >>>>> Tab 2:... maybe some sculpting tool implementations :P ? (for another >>>>> time !). >>>>> Tab 3: The new hair system panel, including as preliminary features: >>>>> >>>>> Being able to groom hair without being limited by mesh resolution is >>>>> pretty much a must. Weight maps are nice for animated effects, but their >>>>> reliance on mesh resolution is a pain. I see them as only remaining for >>>>> painting attributes that need to be animated. >>>>> >>>>> Also, sculpting tools? for hair? >>>>> >>>>> 2) A layer system like the "scene" one in the KP/L so you can have >>>>> separate hair systems on different hide-able reference-able layers, with >>>>> the addition of a slider enabling you to increase or decrees the number of >>>>> hairs shown in the viewport per layer. (this would allow you to rapidly >>>>> test incremental density simulations, on the fly without having to dive >>>>> into an ice tree or bring up a ppg ). >>>>> >>>>> So multiple layers of hair in the same point cloud? That's an >>>>> interesting thought, and certainly doable. >>>>> >>>>> 3) I'm a big fan of the M tool in SI, i love the 3 small grey icons >>>>> that appear at the bottom of the view port, (manipulate, magnet and weld) >>>>> i >>>>> just wish it was customisable with even more tools ! >>>>> In this spirit i would like to have a small library of icons on the >>>>> hair system panel, icons for guide painting, and manipulation: paint/erase >>>>> grow/cut, brush/frizz,orient ...etc. i would like it to be possible to >>>>> click and drag these icons into a small tray on the viewport like the M >>>>> tool small grey icons. so you can have your own customizable loadout. >>>>> >>>>> As I am still looking at ICE integration as the holy grail here, >>>>> meaning strand guides and various attributes would be generated by the >>>>> plugin and output to ICE, where they could be utilized by any number of >>>>> nodes. I suppose the only solution that would satisfy this requirement is >>>>> to build another interface that ... interfaces with an ICE tree to make >>>>> the >>>>> necessary connections. This would allow for an "artist friendly" solution >>>>> while maintaining the adaptability of ICE. >>>>> >>>>> 4) Convert To: a series of utilities that allow you to convert >>>>> elements, primitives or meshes, into hair guides; so you can choose to >>>>> draw >>>>> a curve and then click "convert to" guides or strands, upon which you get >>>>> prompted to choose an existing layer to add to, or to create a layer for >>>>> this new hair element. if you choose a mesh like a rectangle, it would >>>>> give >>>>> you the options on how you would like the hairs to populate the inside of >>>>> the mesh, by length? what density? etc... >>>>> >>>>> The idea of a hairMesh is a popular one, and relatively simple by >>>>> design. Integrating it with a complete hair solution is slight more >>>>> tricky. >>>>> I suppose standard guide generation on the whole mesh followed by >>>>> selecting >>>>> a face to serve as the base layer for a hair mesh to be extruded outwards, >>>>> with the guides within that face being replaced by guides generated by the >>>>> mesh. >>>>> >>>>> Simulation of a hairMesh would also be tricky business, but combining >>>>> an off-the-shelf solution (say, syflex) with per-strand simulation might >>>>> make for some interesting results. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *takes notes* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 3:48 AM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't feel qualified to dictate the software needs of everything >>>>>> and everyone in the industry, i might expand a bit on what i'd like to >>>>>> see >>>>>> from such a system. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a hair system ? >>>>>> >>>>>> *) First off, it should be able to stand on it's own without ICE. >>>>>> >>>>>> *) it should probably work on its own engine (like yeti, i assume). >>>>>> >>>>>> *) If it has its own engine, it should be open so as to offer TD's >>>>>> and Dev's the freedom and space they need to solve problems and expand >>>>>> tools or implement new tools. (this point is more a given, TD's and Dev's >>>>>> should always be facilitated in this regard). >>>>>> >>>>>> *) It Should have its own unit, like a strand, guide or null, that >>>>>> exists for this purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> *)It should be tablet compatible, as in stylus, pen pressure, all >>>>>> that jazz. >>>>>> >>>>>> *) It should be ICE compliant ; stand on it's own yes, but that >>>>>> should not subject isolated from ICE, it's too good a tool to be ignored. >>>>>> Ideally, a relationship where ICE is less of a crutch and more of a third >>>>>> arm. e.g The proprietary Guides/strands/units can be brought into ICE as >>>>>> data, so if you where making a wood nymph, and you wanted to make flowers >>>>>> bloom from the tips of her hair: all this managed through ICE. Listening >>>>>> to >>>>>> Paul Smith, in his demo of FUZZ, he says that strand collisions are very >>>>>> slow. So regarding hair, ICE would be more an aesthetics effects base >>>>>> tool >>>>>> then a physics engine, the actual simulation being taken care of by the >>>>>> hair systems dedicated engine. so yes as much compliance between the two >>>>>> systems as possible. >>>>>> >>>>>> *) UI integration. where would it live ? i'd love to see the sparsely >>>>>> inhabited paint tools panel, be sectioned into 3 tabs, similar to the >>>>>> right >>>>>> side, MCP/KP-L/PPG. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tab 1: the original xsi paint tools, weight painting etc... >>>>>> >>>>>> Tab 2:... maybe some sculpting tool implementations :P ? (for another >>>>>> time !). >>>>>> >>>>>> Tab 3: The new hair system panel, including as preliminary features: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1) A stylus pressure segment with curve profile. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2) A layer system like the "scene" one in the KP/L so you can have >>>>>> separate hair systems on different hide-able reference-able layers, with >>>>>> the addition of a slider enabling you to increase or decrees the number >>>>>> of >>>>>> hairs shown in the viewport per layer. (this would allow you to rapidly >>>>>> test incremental density simulations, on the fly without having to dive >>>>>> into an ice tree or bring up a ppg ). >>>>>> >>>>>> 3) I'm a big fan of the M tool in SI, i love the 3 small grey icons >>>>>> that appear at the bottom of the view port, (manipulate, magnet and >>>>>> weld) i >>>>>> just wish it was customisable with even more tools ! >>>>>> >>>>>> In this spirit i would like to have a small library of icons on the >>>>>> hair system panel, icons for guide painting, and manipulation: >>>>>> paint/erase >>>>>> grow/cut, brush/frizz,orient ...etc. i would like it to be possible to >>>>>> click and drag these icons into a small tray on the viewport like the M >>>>>> tool small grey icons. so you can have your own customizable loadout. >>>>>> >>>>>> 4) Convert To: a series of utilities that allow you to convert >>>>>> elements, primitives or meshes, into hair guides; so you can choose to >>>>>> draw >>>>>> a curve and then click "convert to" guides or strands, upon which you >>>>>> get >>>>>> prompted to choose an existing layer to add to, or to create a layer for >>>>>> this new hair element. if you choose a mesh like a rectangle, it would >>>>>> give >>>>>> you the options on how you would like the hairs to populate the inside of >>>>>> the mesh, by length? what density? etc... >>>>>> >>>>>> note: if you convert to a guide, them the elements will become >>>>>> guides, if you choose convert to strand then the elements will become >>>>>> hair >>>>>> in witch ever layer you put them, influenced by the closest guide on that >>>>>> layer. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And that's it, these are some of the things i would like to see in a >>>>>> "heavier" hair system. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I toyed with the notion of a node graph like yeti's but from what i >>>>>> could see of it so far, it is very linear, nowhere near as fun as ICE, >>>>>> so a >>>>>> cool idea, for visualisation but i'd have to see a little more matured >>>>>> version to be sold. >>>>>> >>>>>> i doubt anyone will ever implement any of this, this is just a lot of >>>>>> pipe dreaming, but that is my answer. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14 February 2014 00:51, Mathias N <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sticking with the idea of a complete solution within Softimage, what >>>>>>> would your definition of heavier be? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I saw that the first day it was up Eddie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And as jawdroppingly cool as it is, i have a feeling we are going >>>>>>>> to need something a little heavier to go forward. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14 February 2014 00:01, Ed Manning <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://vimeo.com/80382153 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A new hair system is kinda over due. :( >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 12 February 2014 16:54, Luc Girard <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tim, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the way you mentioned our projects :) . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I would like to chime in and say that we, at Shed, are also >>>>>>>>>>> looking at hair solutions actively. Our solution based on Kristinka >>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>> the job but it is very far from being an out of the box solution >>>>>>>>>>> and it >>>>>>>>>>> requires a lot of RnD to maintain as it not supported by AD. If a >>>>>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>>>>> pops up, with substeps motion blur per example, we are left to our >>>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>>> devices. We usually prevail but we end up spending nearly 50% of >>>>>>>>>>> the time >>>>>>>>>>> on technical details vs real look dev. I thought you should know >>>>>>>>>>> :). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >From what I've seen around, Yeti seems to be a good contender >>>>>>>>>>> but I've yet to do a full production setup with it. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Good luck in your search ! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Luc Girard // SHED >>>>>>>>>>> VFX artist >>>>>>>>>>> 1410, RUE STANLEY, 11E ÉTAGE MONTRÉAL (QUÉBEC) H3A 1P8 >>>>>>>>>>> T 514 849-1555 F 514 849-5025 WWW.SHEDMTL.COM >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Tim >>>>>>>>>>> Leydecker >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 8 février 2014 07:26 >>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Softimage Hair options? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for this in-depth answer! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I´m starting to lean towards going for the trial of >>>>>>>>>>> Yeti, one reason being that I think I remember Colin Doncaster´s >>>>>>>>>>> name from >>>>>>>>>>> another maya maling list and another because of the really nice >>>>>>>>>>> sample >>>>>>>>>>> image of a bear posted by Yolandi Meiring in a similar thread here: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (Thread) >>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/2erKqUcghpI >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (Image) >>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/xsi_list/attach/994086131ca9460/bear_still.jpg?part=4&view=1 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Another really nice one is a proof of concept of bringing >>>>>>>>>>> (3dsMax) hair-farm into Softimage from Lee-Perry Smith, with props >>>>>>>>>>> to Dani >>>>>>>>>>> Garcia and Steven Caron. >>>>>>>>>>> That human hairdo and it´s renderings look incredibly awesome. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://ir-ltd.net/hair-farm-hair-into-softimage/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For a Melena/Kristinka workflow using Anto Matkovic´s tools in >>>>>>>>>>> those beautiful shed projects there´s a nice clip posted by/on >>>>>>>>>>> Lester Banks >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://lesterbanks.com/2013/05/workflow-tips-for-creating-and-grooming-hair-in-softimage/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have only limited amounts of time I can spend on this and need >>>>>>>>>>> to find something that has potential to be useable for testing >>>>>>>>>>> Redshift´s >>>>>>>>>>> hair shading approach when applicable but ideally integrates >>>>>>>>>>> seamlessly >>>>>>>>>>> into either Maya/Max/Softimage. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The combination of Maya+Redshift is allready working very well >>>>>>>>>>> and it seems it´ll be easier to successfully migrate from simple >>>>>>>>>>> hair/fur >>>>>>>>>>> testing to something actually looking good (using yeti). Also, yeti >>>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>>> variety of licensing options I might find atractive at a later date >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>> tempted to actually finish something beyond spare-time doodling. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I´d prefer Softimage but if that stuff works better in Maya, >>>>>>>>>>> it´ll be Maya. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I suck with Max, even the fastest and most intuitive plugin >>>>>>>>>>> can´t compensate that sad fact. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> tim >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 08.02.2014 12:57, Stefan Kubicek wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Tim, >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > I've just been dealing with hair an a hamster and used the >>>>>>>>>>> built-in hair&fur of Softimage /2014SP2). >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > A few tips about working with built-in hair: >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > Avoid too dense meshes. It creates a guide hair for every >>>>>>>>>>> vertex, >>>>>>>>>>> > hence dense meshes make you fiddle with lots and lots of guide >>>>>>>>>>> hair strands manually, which can be counter-productive and >>>>>>>>>>> -intuitive. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > If you want to edit hair parameters on a per vertex basis (via >>>>>>>>>>> vertex >>>>>>>>>>> > colors), you need to plan ahead where exactly you want your >>>>>>>>>>> hair to be and where you want certain features (transparency, >>>>>>>>>>> density, kink >>>>>>>>>>> & frizz) to change and over which distance/area. This is especially >>>>>>>>>>> important for areas like hand and feet, as well as nose & eye lids. >>>>>>>>>>> > So, before you move the mesh into skinning/rigging, you better >>>>>>>>>>> make sure your topology works not only for animation but also for >>>>>>>>>>> the hair >>>>>>>>>>> setup you have in mind. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > Don't rely on the built-in style transfer functionality. It >>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>> > mostly work but has a tendency to "blur" the transferred hair >>>>>>>>>>> style, even if your source and target emitter topology are the >>>>>>>>>>> same. You >>>>>>>>>>> need to move in again and reintroduce details in the fur that got >>>>>>>>>>> lost. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > If you want to simulate hair with collision don't use a subd >>>>>>>>>>> mesh as >>>>>>>>>>> > the emitter. The docs say that having hair emitted from a subd >>>>>>>>>>> mesh >>>>>>>>>>> > cannot collide with its own emitter, so you have to duplicate >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> > source mesh and subdivide it for real (that is, create more >>>>>>>>>>> actual >>>>>>>>>>> > polygons) and use that as the collision object. That would >>>>>>>>>>> still be >>>>>>>>>>> > acceptable, if it worked, which it does not. What I found after >>>>>>>>>>> > tedious testing was that any collision testing fails when your >>>>>>>>>>> emitter is a subd mesh, independent of what you have it collide with >>>>>>>>>>> (itself or another mesh), which kinda sucks and is the biggest >>>>>>>>>>> problem I >>>>>>>>>>> ran into for which I could not find a solution. Thankfully my fur >>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>> rather short and the character had a lot of secondary motion, so it >>>>>>>>>>> looks >>>>>>>>>>> alife enough (besides some problems when bending arms, which are >>>>>>>>>>> hardly >>>>>>>>>>> noticeable in the animation in my case). From what I can tell it >>>>>>>>>>> looks like >>>>>>>>>>> collision is always computed against a simplified collision sphere >>>>>>>>>>> representation of the collision object, no matter what you set for >>>>>>>>>>> collision accuracy and shape, deforming shape, etc. It just >>>>>>>>>>> doesn't work, >>>>>>>>>>> at least not for me. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > Sometimes, when saving and reloading a scene some hair strands >>>>>>>>>>> (like 1 >>>>>>>>>>> > out of 1000) would suddenly stick in some random direction. I >>>>>>>>>>> had the impression that it helps to always collapse the modeling >>>>>>>>>>> stack >>>>>>>>>>> before saving, at least it never occurred again in final stages of >>>>>>>>>>> production when the fur description was final and not changed >>>>>>>>>>> anymore. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > Next time I will surely look at Kristinka or Melena. AS for >>>>>>>>>>> > simulation...I believe there was a Strand Simulation framework >>>>>>>>>>> with self collision introduced on softimage.tv some weeks ago >>>>>>>>>>> that looked promising, I haven't heard of ne1 using it for hair so >>>>>>>>>>> far, >>>>>>>>>>> mayb someone else can comment on that? Would love to hear some >>>>>>>>>>> ideas on >>>>>>>>>>> this as well. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > Good luck, >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > Stefan >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > Hi guys, >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> what would be a convenient way to create,style and control >>>>>>>>>>> hair in >>>>>>>>>>> >> Softimage, with lengths up to 10-12 inches and ideally both a >>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>> >> collision model and dedicated styling tools? >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> Which Softimage version would you suggest, e.g. 2014sp2? >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> I´m a novice with hair and fur but would like to set up a >>>>>>>>>>> manageable >>>>>>>>>>> >> sample/test that ideally works with Arnold and Redshift. >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> Is it possible to work generic or transfer results from, say >>>>>>>>>>> Yeti >>>>>>>>>>> >> into Softimage? >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> Would you recommend actually leaning towards Maya for such a >>>>>>>>>>> task, >>>>>>>>>>> >> either going directly to Yeti or similar? >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> I know those are fuzzy questions, I guess I´m actually >>>>>>>>>>> looking for a >>>>>>>>>>> >> biased answer regarding any of the various hair plugin >>>>>>>>>>> options for >>>>>>>>>>> >> any of the major three apps, e.g. max/maya/softimage. >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> Sofar, I´ve found the following options: >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> hairfarm, yeti, ornatrix, shave&haircut, maya hair, maya xgen >>>>>>>>>>> "hair" >>>>>>>>>>> >> in 2014ext and the cinema4d hair options (shadowmapped). >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> Admittedly, that´s a lot of options and I find it difficult >>>>>>>>>>> to bet my >>>>>>>>>>> >> time-investment onto any of them since I simply know bling >>>>>>>>>>> about pro´s or con´s. >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> tim >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.matinai.com >>> >> >> >
