Good stuff Matt. Couldn't find anything to disagree with there.
On 14/05/2018 00:01, Matt Lind wrote:
you're dissecting things at a more granular level than is intended,
and as a result you're losing sight of the overall discussion.
a new user coming into Houdini doesn't have that historical
background, nor does he/she care. He only sees a lot of special case
tools that require inside knowledge to understand and use. That is the
immediate point of frustration that isn't resolved well with
documentation, and in many cases, not even discussed at all. This is
one deterrent from adopting Houdini from the generalist's perspective.
Houdini doesn't have good tools for dealing with the macro view of a
scene for the generalist. When you open a scene you're not familiar
with, or one you haven't opened in a very long time, you want to get a
general overview of it's structure in a few seconds. That is the
purpose of mentioning the schematic view as it provides that overview
at a glance. Does it tell you everything? No, of course not, but it
doesn't have to either. It does tell you the links between nodes such
as who is constrained to whom, where the envelopes reside, which nodes
have shapes/lattices/etc. and very importantly – hierarchical
relationships to understand how rigs are put together. Again, we're
talking about the big picture. Explorer??? that’s for micro-level work
when you want the dirty details on an object. It's not good for the
broader picture as you have to spending a lot of time clicking on
nested node after node until you find what you're looking for, and
even then there's often a lot more information displayed than you need
leading to excessive noise. That's exactly the same problem with ICE
compounds as digging into nested compound after nested compound you
begin to lose sight over the bigger picture you're trying to grasp.
This isn't a discussion about which is more powerful, it's about
presenting information that is better suited for high level working
for the non-technical user.
As for networks and subnetworks. Great, you have a system. Most people
do not, or if they do, it will not be the same system as yours. THAT
is the point. There is no consistent or uniform way of having
information presented to you to get the high level picture of what's
going on in the scene. There needs to be some base level of
communicating to the user where things are placed, how they relate to
each other, and so on, and not require the user to dig, dig, dig, dig,
to get oriented to find ‘basic’ information. Someone can easily build
a forest and hide 50,000 trees and other geographical features inside
of a single network or subnetwork which appears as a single node in
the network view, and even build it recursively. That is not
informative. This is where Houdini needs to improve. In contrast,
although it can be done, it's pretty difficult to hide those details
in Softimage's Schematic view. You open the scene, BAM! you see the
complexity right away.
I'm not suggesting Houdini be rebuilt from the ground up. I'm
highlighting sticking points between it's current state and why more
generalists don't adopt it. When you get into a larger production
pipeline, as much as you need the low level power Houdini provides
with assets and such, there is just as much need at the opposite end
of the spectrum with getting users into the pipeline to do work. Many
of whom are not thoroughly trained and need to learn on the fly, and
probably won't have a great deal of interest learning all the ins and
outs beyond the bare necessities to get their job done to
satisfaction. As production scales up, the quality of your users tends
to drop because you have the matter of filling seats to crank out work
by a specific deadline, and each seat has a salary cap. Therefore,
whatever pipeline you have, it must accommodate these less than ideal
users. Many generalists struggle with learning and/or forming good
habits even when given good instruction as you're forcing
non-technical people into a technical environment. It's alien to them
in a migraine headache creating type of way because an artist is
generally right-brained while technical users are generally
left-brained. A schematic view is right-brained approach.
Explorer/networks is a left-brained approach. While Houdini has a
functional equivalent of a schematic view in the network view, it
doesn't provide the same information the generalist seeks because it
requires additional attention to detail to dissect the graphs in a
more left-brained approach. Houdini needs more right-brained tools and
interfaces to accommodate the generalist.
Matt
Message: 2 Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 22:48:16 +0100 From: Jordi Bares
<[email protected]> Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs? To:
"Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
This thread is getting really really useful, thanks Matt?
More comments below.
On 13 May 2018, at 21:00, Matt Lind <[email protected]> wrote:
Another example is the need to learn the various categories of
operators (SOPS, CHOPS, VOPS, ?). Sometimes nodes from different
categories do the same thing. that adds confusion.
There are historic reasons for this to be the case, in the very early
days those were completely different programs, that was then unified
and finally new contexts appeared (like VOPs) and lately MATs
If nodes from one category cannot work with a node of a different
category, then that's a problem too.
They deal with different data, if you look at it from that angle it
makes easier to build your own strategy/style.
This is where documentation is sorely needed.
Agreed.
It's not strictly a case of a SOP does this and a VOP does that, but
rather a discussion about strategy. When is it appropriate to use the
various OPs?
My basic approach is to keep as much as possible in SOPs and rely on
Wrangle nodes to parallelise tasks. While VOPs are fantastic I find
that, like ICE, these networks get big quickly (even more so in
Houdini) so I prefer VEX Wrangles right now.
Regarding CHOPs, I rely on them to do signal processing and rely on
input/output devices such as MIDI or joystick to drive things. And of
course constraints now that they are executed as CHOPs.
And that is pretty much it.
When should a SOP be used in place of wrangled nodes, or vice versa?
If you want to have full authoring control, go for Wrangle nodes,
otherwise I default to SOPs as I want a simple yet robust data
management and speed is not an issue.
that is a huge void in the documentation and a place where users
easily get lost and frustrated to the point they throw in the towel.
In short, Houdini has a lot of spring cleaning to do to tidy things up
for the generalist.
Agreed
Right now it's an idiosyncratic development environment. It can be
very powerful, but it requires a lot of inside knowledge to use it.
The generalist doesn't want to (or need to) deal with the inside
knowledge. They need something they can hit the ground running without
fuss.
If you ask me that is not the case with ICE, you really need to roll
your sleeves at first and get to grips with not that different approaches.
I a way I feel we tend to swing goalposts when we talk Softimage and
Houdini, for example, Rendetree was a blessing but has quite a few
gotchas as well, the same with ICE.
As for the show dependencies thingy, that's just it. I don't want to
see more wires inside of a graph which is already very crowded, messy,
and lacking structure. There needs to be a way to illustrate the
structured connectivity at a high level so users aren't forced into
the weeds to get basic information.
The way I organise it is by following the same approach than reading
books, from top to bottom, from left to right. And when things get
hairy I build subnetworks, netboxes and put down background images and
notes to take the next guy in line with the way I have structured the
scene.
With ICE or the rendertree in Softimage, the nodes were text-based so
you could follow the logic while hiding unconnected ports. However,
even ICE trees could get very complex very quickly, so the use of
compounds were introduced,
Subnetworks in Houdini.
and while that helped, it wasn't the same as a schematic view as
compounds could be recursively nested to very deep levels hiding the
very information you sought.
Would you really want an schematic view like the one in Soft??? I left
that behind since XSI 2.0 when I discover the explorer? tons more
value in my humble opinion.
Houdini's nodes are very iconic, but not very descriptive as to what
they do. You can see various node icon shapes, but that still doesn't
tell you the logic in the same way as following an ICE tree or rendertree.
Are you comparing the same thing? ICE tree vs VOPs makes sense and
they are not that different at all. Rendertree vs MATs make sense and
again are not that different anyway.
ICE or rendertree vs SOPs does not make sense to compare.
Nevertheless with regards with clarity, the only thing I miss from the
rendertree is the ability to see thumbnails quickly and easily,
something I need to requests at some point to SideFX.
The design/layout of the network view leads to lots of bloat very fast
making it difficult to keep track of your work when you get beyond
simple models.
A tip, use subnetworks, honestly. And if you don?t at least use net
boxes that you can see in the data tree.
Also, you can have two network editors looking at the node and its
contents at the same time, which makes it terrific with complex scenes
with many levels of subnetworks.
While networks make a lot of sense for VFX work, they are often less
than ideal for character driven work. Character work benefits more
from straightforward relationships which are easy to identify and
follow as characters are often a hub for other work such as VFX,
simulations, attachments, constraint interactions, and other details
which come later in the pipeline. People working in those later steps
need to be able to quickly jump into the asset and immediately know
what to do and where to do it. They can't be burdened with a messy
network graph which they must study to the N'th degree before they
understand where to start.
I am sorry but I don?t agree with this at all, I find much easier to
follow the complex nature of a character and its relationships in
Houdini than Softimage, may I remind you about following operator
stacks, constraints, expressions buried in local transforms vs global
ones, scripted operators, relationships with blend shapes, mixer
curves vs curves? On a shitty curve editor? Or the mini editor for
time-warps, groups assignments collisions, delta changes????? Then you
add to the mix character maintenance, versions, multi-resolution?
You need order in both applications and a certain approach everyone
understands and comforts to but overall, you will see less concept
clutter in Houdini although may be more wires. ;-)
cheers jb
Matt
Message: 2 Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 17:28:12 +0100 From: Jordi Bares
<[email protected]> Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs? To:
"Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
below
On 12 May 2018, at 23:26, Matt Lind <[email protected]> wrote:
I wouldn't steer towards uber nodes. The larger a node gets, the more
maintenance it requires and more taxing it becomes as a bottleneck. If
a node gets too big, you may end up with a situation where it becomes
really popular from having a larger feature set and everybody and his
cousin uses the node in every project. At that point the node can
become an albatross around the developer's neck because any tweaks to
the node could cause negative ripple effect throughout the community
should something go wrong. The whole point of having a node system is
to guard against that scenario by distributing the workload and only
use the features you need. Uber nodes would automatically add bloat to
your workflow from the many features you often wouldn't use but have
to come along for the ride.
I was referring to the kind of ?uber node? you find in Softimage where
you don?t have to do all the heavy lifting? certainly I agree with
you, monolithic Albatros is not the idea of uber-node I had in mind. :-)
I think what's needed are more dedicated nodes for modeling,
texturing, and animation tasks to fill in the current voids. There
also needs to be some more UI polish to work with modeling and
character animation workflows. Both are merely the base level
adequate. They need to improve into good or great.
My take is that in order to compete in the modelling market the edit
SOPs and the Retopo SOP will have to be extended to bring a lot more
functionality and this is where I see the non-procedural approach
acceptable. Right now these are very limited compared with Softimage.
Houdini needs a few modules to account for workflows where a node base
system simply doesn't make any sense or provide advantage. Think
pushing and pulling points on geometry to sculpt a character, or
tweaking texture UVs for game assets. Building a network with hundreds
of nodes containing all the tweaks is counter productive beyond a
handful. It would be better to make a dedicated user interface to work
on that task in long session form, then merely bake out the stack of
tweaks as a single node in the tree when all is said and done ? or
something to that effect. Perhaps the user would apply markers to
decide how many tweaks can be bundled together as a single node upon
completion in the same fashion a user can define an arbitrary point as
a restore point when updating Windows.
We are on the same page here as well.
The FCurve editor is mostly OK, but the layout of tools on all sides
of the windows needs a rethink. While they're making good use of
screen space, it puts more burden on the mind of the user to keep
track of all the tools and be more conscious of pointing and clicking
with the mouse when tweaking FCurve Key values so as to avoid
inadvertently clicking a tool placed on the perimeter of the FCurve
editing workspace. Sometimes it's better to have emptiness on one or
more sides of the workspace.
Indeed, this is really user experience refinements rather than
anything else, imho it is quite good already and love the grouping
system. Dopesheet needs some love though.
What needs most attention is management of large networks of ops as
when dealing with character rigging as you need some degree of
assessment of how the character's parts are hooked up to function. A
schematic view makes that fairly straightforward and the parts that
are overdriven by expressions or other tools are easy enough to locate
with arrows and wires connecting them. Doing the same in Houdini on a
complex character is quite a chore as the trees of nodes don't
necessarily illustrate the patterns of parent/child relationship or
trickle down behavior one would expect to be able to follow. This
makes the process of rigging a bit counter-productive from an
organizational standpoint and puts extra burden on new users or users
who haven't seen the asset before and need to become familiar with it
before they begin work. It requires a great deal more study to get up
to speed.
Do you know about the ?show dependencies? right?
What most non-technical artists complain about is the lack of
attention to detail in getting boiler plate tasks done. Not because
the application isn't capable, but because it requires a lot more time
and energy than should be necessary. It's kind of like having to
rebuild your car from scratch every time you want to go grocery
shopping. Even if all you have to buy is a carton of milk, the effort
to get there is just not worth it. Furthermore, the houdini manuals
aren't particularly good at describing how to make use of the system
for these types of tasks.
I am not saying you are wrong but? could you point to some? I would
love to analyse those and may be we can find ways to address those and
minimise the friction.
There's documentation on individual nodes and interfaces, but there
really isn't anything to tie it all together in a harmony that makes
sense to the end user. One hand isn't talking to the other. I am a
technical user and found this to be the most frustrating part of
learning Houdini. While there are videos, the last thing I want to do
is spend hours and hours scrubbing through videos to find the one
nugget I need to get to the next step of the task.
Very much agree the documentation efforts need a further push? these
have been left behind by the rapid development and lost tons of
examples that helped a lot.
I would like to use Houdini, but am choosing to not pursue it until I
see more adoption for character and modeling work.
FYI I am rigging and animating a human character in Houdini as we
speak? For a film.
jb
Matt
Message: 1 Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 09:34:28 +0100 From: Jordi Bares
<[email protected]> Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs? To:
"Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
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<[email protected]> Message-ID:
<[email protected]> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="utf-8"@Matt, Exactly my thoughts (but clearly
better explained)I would certainly advocate to improve things in terms
of node functionality or assisting better in certain aspects (blend
shape manager, exporting bundles in and out, or adding hierarchical
overrides in takes, or adding certain tools we use every single day,
or bringing more ?uber nodes? to VOPs so we don?t have to be so
granular) but always without sacrificing proceduralism or breaking
their core design.Jb------ Softimage Mailing List. To unsubscribe,
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End of Softimage Digest, Vol 114, Issue 62
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Alastair Hearsum
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GLASSWORKS
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See our latest work _here_
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The Penthouse,
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87-91 Newman Street
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W1T 3EY
T +44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk
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Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
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(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office
73 Cornhill, London, EC3V 3QQ.
VAT registration number: 198083762)
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