Matt, Oh great now we'll have to debate the issue of what 18" actually means. Thanks dude. :)
Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 8:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room Maybe I am missing something..??? Anyone consider 8.5.5? R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Rd. PO Box 877 Cantonment, FL. 32533 850-937-1850 Voice 850-937-1852 Facsimile [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:48 AM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >I stand corrected and should have said CONTAIN instead ----- >of suppress. But in any case, the situation illustrated ----- >here wouldn't even contain a fire. Water running in ----- >streams off the panels (if the sprinkler even operated) ----- >isn't going to accomplish much, maybe it would drown the ----- >fire eventually if you let it flow long enough. (ah ----- >there you go, now that would be suppression by drowning) ;) ----- > ----- > ----- >The whole concept of when does an obstruction become an ----- >obstruction can not always be defined by the black and ----- >white rules written down. There's no magic in the 48" ----- >number. To say that at 48" it's not an obstruction but ----- >at 48.5" it is, only defines the item as an obstruction ----- >per the code but not always in actual application. When ----- >there are obstructions such as these they can almost ----- >create a ceiling level below the roof deck sprinklers. ----- >This is one area where the FP designer can help the ----- >architect by letting them know these kind of items can ----- >create a problem. Maybe going to a smaller panel and ----- >adjusting the spacing between differently can eliminate ----- >any question whatsoever about the need of sub-level ----- >sprinklers and the effectiveness and unhindered ----- >activation of the roof deck sprinklers. ----- > ----- >But in typical fashion if we meet the written definition ----- >of the Code, we're covered. No extra costs to the ----- >owner. We've met the requirements based on the minimum. ----- > I guess this is my soapbox issue. Owners want cheap, ----- >cheap, cheap when it comes to fire protection systems, ----- >save every dollar they can there, "just give me the bare ----- >minimum", but I don't ever remember hearing someone say ----- >to buy the cheapest carpet they can find. Sounds like ----- >the priorities are a bit askew. ----- > ----- > ----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET ----- >Fire Protection Group ----- >Mechanical Department ----- >CH2MHILL ----- >Lockwood Greene ----- >1500 International Drive ----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 ----- >Direct - 864.599.4102 ----- >Fax - 864.599.8439 ----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >http://www.lg.com ----- > ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Bob Knight ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:47 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >Craig, ----- >I agreed with you on the quantity and closeness of the ----- >panels, I was merely pointing out the fact that an ----- >object is not an obstruction just because it is 48" ----- >wide. It's not an obstruction until it exceeds the 48" ----- >threshold. ----- >As far as are sprinklers required; it will depend on the ----- >actual layout of the panels. It may be that there are ----- >areas were it would be advisable to place pendants in ----- >the panels, while there may be other areas where this ----- >can be avoided. This is why I'm not sold either way. ----- >The layout will dictate where sprinklers will be ----- >required. As Garth mentioned, I think it was Garth, the ----- >fire sprinklers are designed to contain not suppress the fire. ----- >While we all want to see every fire suppressed, this is ----- >not the intent. It is an excellent bonus though that ----- >most fires are suppressed by sprinklers, and I agree ----- >that we need to be diligent in our designs so as not to ----- >create systems that will be destined to fail. ----- > ----- >Bob K ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:27 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >It will discharge down upon the panels and then just run ----- >down to the floor in streams. Doubt there will be much ----- >swirling below the panels. If the discharge pattern of a ----- >sprinkler is crucial to its effective nature at ----- >suppressing fire, then it's unlikely that they will have ----- >much more effect than someone laying a garden hose on ----- >top of the panels and letting it run. ----- >Hopefully the panels are designed and installed in such ----- >a way that they won't retain or collect water, then fall ----- >to the floor under the weight. ----- > ----- >This is one of those issues where we need to feel ----- >confident that due diligence has been practiced when "we ----- >just meet the code". Don't forget, that's the mantra ----- >the owner of Sofa World used. ----- > ----- > ----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET ----- >Fire Protection Group ----- >Mechanical Department ----- >CH2MHILL ----- >Lockwood Greene ----- >1500 International Drive ----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 ----- >Direct - 864.599.4102 ----- >Fax - 864.599.8439 ----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >http://www.lg.com ----- > ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Bob Knight ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:20 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >Splitting hairs may be true, but none the less 48" and ----- >less qualifies per code. As long as the panels are ----- >consistent in size, they are acceptable per code. So, ----- >the sprinklers don't have to be precise, they just need ----- >to discharge. One of the reasons that obstructions of ----- >this size are allowed per code is because water is ----- >distributed and acts in a laminar fashion. ----- >Simply meaning that water can and will swirl around in ----- >the air allowing it to cover areas that are otherwise ----- >obstructed from direct discharge. ----- > ----- >Bob ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:03 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >This is splitting hairs but at 48" they are not an ----- >obstruction based on NFPA 13, but if they were 48-1/8" ----- >they are now an obstruction. Those are some excessively ----- >precise sprinklers. ----- > ----- > ----- > ----- > ----- > ----- > ----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET ----- >Fire Protection Group ----- >Mechanical Department ----- >CH2MHILL ----- >Lockwood Greene ----- >1500 International Drive ----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 ----- >Direct - 864.599.4102 ----- >Fax - 864.599.8439 ----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >http://www.lg.com ----- > ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Bob Knight ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:57 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >Chuck, ----- >I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with the positions being ----- >taken on this because I haven't made up my mind. I'm a ----- >little uncomfortable with the quantity of panels as ----- >someone Craig mentioned. However, if the panels measure ----- >exactly 48" they still can be considered a non ----- >obstruction based on width alone. They become an ----- >obstruction only when they exceed 48". ----- > ----- >Bob Knight ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Rapid Fire - Bismarck ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:46 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >Sorry, I know that Life Safety is everybody's primary ----- >concern - and that's the business we're in. (The ----- >comment about "cost" and "feel good" was meant to be ----- >tongue-in-cheek.) Information on the panels just arrived ----- >- yep non-covered actual dimensions = 3'-10¾ square (now ----- >- add some sort of fabric ----- >- and we're at 4'-0"). I'm still awaiting a return from ----- >the A.H.J. ----- > ----- >**I apologize for the doubling of the messages - I don't ----- >know why they're coming across 2x** ----- > ----- >Chuck ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Terri Leyton ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:46 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >In this heat, even the dirty water "feels good". ----- >:-) ----- > ----- >Terri Simmons Leyton ----- >PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING ----- >Ph: 858-751-2930 ----- >Fax: 858-751-2933 ----- >Cell: 619-871-8450 ----- > ----- >PLEASE NOTE: ----- >New address effective 8-27-07! ----- >8849-B Complex Drive, San Diego, CA 92123 Phone and fax ----- >remain the same ----- > ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Rapid Fire - Bismarck ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:35 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >But at what expense? Surely you won't see an architect ----- >/ owner openly offer money to "feel good". ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:23 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >Granted the clouds may not allow a sprinkler to ----- >"effectively extinguish a fire below such an assembly" ----- >but when did extinguishment become a requirement and how ----- >will a sprinkler installed in a 4x4 panel prevent ----- >diversion of combustion gasses? ----- > ----- >We call them feel good sprinklers, they won't go off ----- >because there is no heat collection but they make the ----- >AHJ's and engineers happy. ----- > ----- >Ron Fletcher ----- >Aero Automatic ----- >Phoenix, AZ ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:07 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >Even though the clouds are 3'-11 and technically under ----- >the 4'-0 rule ----- >(8.6.5.3.3) with only 1'-0 up to 4'-0 between the panels ----- >what will the effective spray pattern be from heads ----- >installed at the underside of the roof deck? If you had ----- >4 panels with only 12" between the panels you've ----- >essentially got a 16x16 ft obstruction and would you ----- >really expect sprinklers to effectively extinguish a ----- >fire below such an assembly? Also while we're ----- >discussing obstruction to water spray, what about ----- >diversion of combustion gasses to sprinklers not near ----- >the actual fire source? Is this considered? ----- > ----- >I don't know if the 3'-11 measurement is off the actual ----- >cloud/ a shop drawing or off of an architectural ----- >drawing. If you're scaling something off a cad drawing ----- >I wouldn't try to call it that close, chances are it'll ----- >be 48"+. What did Dirty Harry say, "do ya feel lucky?" .................. ----- > ----- > ----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET ----- >Fire Protection Group ----- >Mechanical Department ----- >CH2MHILL ----- >Lockwood Greene ----- >1500 International Drive ----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 ----- >Direct - 864.599.4102 ----- >Fax - 864.599.8439 ----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >http://www.lg.com ----- > ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Rapid Fire - Bismarck ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:18 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >I appreciate all's input on the matter. (Taking 8.6.5.2.1.4 into ----- >consideration) Though I'm 'nickel and dime'ing the ----- >situation - measurement of the panels are 3'-11" square. ----- > Whew! Under 4'!! Seriously though - in a room ----- >measuring 48'-9" square, there's 56 of these panels! ½" ----- >have a convex contour... the others - concave. ----- >I'll be making a call to the respective A.H.J. and get ----- >his take on it. ----- > ----- >Thanks again! ----- > ----- >No virus found in this outgoing message. ----- >Checked by AVG Free Edition. ----- >Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - ----- >Release Date: 8/14/2007 ----- >5:19 PM ----- > ----- >_______________________________________________ ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list ----- >[email protected] ----- >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ----- > ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ----- >_______________________________________________ ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list ----- >[email protected] ----- >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ----- > ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ----- >_______________________________________________ ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list ----- >[email protected] ----- >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ----- > ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ----- > ----- >No virus found in this incoming message. ----- >Checked by AVG Free Edition. ----- >Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - 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