LOL,,Not 18",, but the INTENT. Everyone is focused on 48". The Chapter deals with various obstructions. One of which is being discussed in depth, the 48". The intent is to avoid situations that will prevent the discharge from reaching the hazard. One 48" panel may not.., 56 panels in the room will.
For what it is worth... R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Rd. PO Box 877 Cantonment, FL. 32533 850-937-1850 Voice 850-937-1852 Facsimile [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 8:15 AM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >Matt, ----- > ----- >Oh great now we'll have to debate the issue of what 18" ----- >actually means. Thanks dude. :) ----- > ----- > ----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET ----- >Fire Protection Group ----- >Mechanical Department ----- >CH2MHILL ----- >Lockwood Greene ----- >1500 International Drive ----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 ----- >Direct - 864.599.4102 ----- >Fax - 864.599.8439 ----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >http://www.lg.com ----- > ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis ----- >Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 8:55 AM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- > ----- >Maybe I am missing something..??? Anyone consider 8.5.5? ----- > ----- > ----- >R/ ----- > ----- >Matt ----- > ----- >Matthew J. Willis ----- >Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. ----- >1160 McKenzie Rd. ----- >PO Box 877 ----- >Cantonment, FL. 32533 ----- >850-937-1850 Voice ----- >850-937-1852 Facsimile ----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- > ----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:48 AM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >I stand corrected and should have said CONTAIN instead ----- >----- >of suppress. But in any case, the situation illustrated ----- >----- >here wouldn't even contain a fire. Water running in ----- >----- >streams off the panels (if the sprinkler even operated) ----- >----- >isn't going to accomplish much, maybe it would drown the ----- >----- >fire eventually if you let it flow long enough. (ah ----- >----- >there you go, now that would be suppression by ----- >drowning) ;) ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >The whole concept of when does an obstruction become an ----- >----- >obstruction can not always be defined by the black and ----- >----- >white rules written down. There's no magic in the 48" ----- >----- >number. To say that at 48" it's not an obstruction but ----- >----- >at 48.5" it is, only defines the item as an obstruction ----- >----- >per the code but not always in actual application. When ----- >----- >there are obstructions such as these they can almost ----- >----- >create a ceiling level below the roof deck sprinklers. ----- >----- >This is one area where the FP designer can help the ----- >----- >architect by letting them know these kind of items can ----- >----- >create a problem. Maybe going to a smaller panel and ----- >----- >adjusting the spacing between differently can eliminate ----- >----- >any question whatsoever about the need of sub-level ----- >----- >sprinklers and the effectiveness and unhindered ----- >----- >activation of the roof deck sprinklers. ----- >----- > ----- >----- >But in typical fashion if we meet the written definition ----- >----- >of the Code, we're covered. No extra costs to the ----- >----- >owner. We've met the requirements based on the minimum. ----- >----- > I guess this is my soapbox issue. Owners want cheap, ----- >----- >cheap, cheap when it comes to fire protection systems, ----- >----- >save every dollar they can there, "just give me the bare ----- >----- >minimum", but I don't ever remember hearing someone say ----- >----- >to buy the cheapest carpet they can find. Sounds like ----- >----- >the priorities are a bit askew. ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET ----- >----- >Fire Protection Group ----- >----- >Mechanical Department ----- >----- >CH2MHILL ----- >----- >Lockwood Greene ----- >----- >1500 International Drive ----- >----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 ----- >----- >Direct - 864.599.4102 ----- >----- >Fax - 864.599.8439 ----- >----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >http://www.lg.com ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of Bob Knight ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:47 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Craig, ----- >----- >I agreed with you on the quantity and closeness of the ----- >----- >panels, I was merely pointing out the fact that an ----- >----- >object is not an obstruction just because it is 48" ----- >----- >wide. It's not an obstruction until it exceeds the 48" ----- >----- >threshold. ----- >----- >As far as are sprinklers required; it will depend on the ----- >----- >actual layout of the panels. It may be that there are ----- >----- >areas were it would be advisable to place pendants in ----- >----- >the panels, while there may be other areas where this ----- >----- >can be avoided. This is why I'm not sold either way. ----- >----- >The layout will dictate where sprinklers will be ----- >----- >required. As Garth mentioned, I think it was Garth, the ----- >----- >fire sprinklers are designed to contain not ----- >suppress the fire. ----- >----- >While we all want to see every fire suppressed, this is ----- >----- >not the intent. It is an excellent bonus though that ----- >----- >most fires are suppressed by sprinklers, and I agree ----- >----- >that we need to be diligent in our designs so as not to ----- >----- >create systems that will be destined to fail. ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Bob K ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:27 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >It will discharge down upon the panels and then just run ----- >----- >down to the floor in streams. Doubt there will be much ----- >----- >swirling below the panels. If the discharge pattern of a ----- >----- >sprinkler is crucial to its effective nature at ----- >----- >suppressing fire, then it's unlikely that they will have ----- >----- >much more effect than someone laying a garden hose on ----- >----- >top of the panels and letting it run. ----- >----- >Hopefully the panels are designed and installed in such ----- >----- >a way that they won't retain or collect water, then fall ----- >----- >to the floor under the weight. ----- >----- > ----- >----- >This is one of those issues where we need to feel ----- >----- >confident that due diligence has been practiced when "we ----- >----- >just meet the code". Don't forget, that's the mantra ----- >----- >the owner of Sofa World used. ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET ----- >----- >Fire Protection Group ----- >----- >Mechanical Department ----- >----- >CH2MHILL ----- >----- >Lockwood Greene ----- >----- >1500 International Drive ----- >----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 ----- >----- >Direct - 864.599.4102 ----- >----- >Fax - 864.599.8439 ----- >----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >http://www.lg.com ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of Bob Knight ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:20 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Splitting hairs may be true, but none the less 48" and ----- >----- >less qualifies per code. As long as the panels are ----- >----- >consistent in size, they are acceptable per code. So, ----- >----- >the sprinklers don't have to be precise, they just need ----- >----- >to discharge. One of the reasons that obstructions of ----- >----- >this size are allowed per code is because water is ----- >----- >distributed and acts in a laminar fashion. ----- >----- >Simply meaning that water can and will swirl around in ----- >----- >the air allowing it to cover areas that are otherwise ----- >----- >obstructed from direct discharge. ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Bob ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:03 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >This is splitting hairs but at 48" they are not an ----- >----- >obstruction based on NFPA 13, but if they were 48-1/8" ----- >----- >they are now an obstruction. Those are some excessively ----- >----- >precise sprinklers. ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET ----- >----- >Fire Protection Group ----- >----- >Mechanical Department ----- >----- >CH2MHILL ----- >----- >Lockwood Greene ----- >----- >1500 International Drive ----- >----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 ----- >----- >Direct - 864.599.4102 ----- >----- >Fax - 864.599.8439 ----- >----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >http://www.lg.com ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of Bob Knight ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:57 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Chuck, ----- >----- >I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with the positions being ----- >----- >taken on this because I haven't made up my mind. I'm a ----- >----- >little uncomfortable with the quantity of panels as ----- >----- >someone Craig mentioned. However, if the panels measure ----- >----- >exactly 48" they still can be considered a non ----- >----- >obstruction based on width alone. They become an ----- >----- >obstruction only when they exceed 48". ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Bob Knight ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of Rapid Fire - Bismarck ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:46 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Sorry, I know that Life Safety is everybody's primary ----- >----- >concern - and that's the business we're in. (The ----- >----- >comment about "cost" and "feel good" was meant to be ----- >----- >tongue-in-cheek.) Information on the panels just arrived ----- >----- >- yep non-covered actual dimensions = 3'-10¾ square (now ----- >----- >- add some sort of fabric ----- >----- >- and we're at 4'-0"). I'm still awaiting a return from ----- >----- >the A.H.J. ----- >----- > ----- >----- >**I apologize for the doubling of the messages - I don't ----- >----- >know why they're coming across 2x** ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Chuck ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of Terri Leyton ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:46 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >In this heat, even the dirty water "feels good". ----- >----- >:-) ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Terri Simmons Leyton ----- >----- >PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING ----- >----- >Ph: 858-751-2930 ----- >----- >Fax: 858-751-2933 ----- >----- >Cell: 619-871-8450 ----- >----- > ----- >----- >PLEASE NOTE: ----- >----- >New address effective 8-27-07! ----- >----- >8849-B Complex Drive, San Diego, CA 92123 Phone and fax ----- >----- >remain the same ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of Rapid Fire - Bismarck ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:35 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >But at what expense? Surely you won't see an architect ----- >----- >/ owner openly offer money to "feel good". ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:23 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Granted the clouds may not allow a sprinkler to ----- >----- >"effectively extinguish a fire below such an assembly" ----- >----- >but when did extinguishment become a requirement and how ----- >----- >will a sprinkler installed in a 4x4 panel prevent ----- >----- >diversion of combustion gasses? ----- >----- > ----- >----- >We call them feel good sprinklers, they won't go off ----- >----- >because there is no heat collection but they make the ----- >----- >AHJ's and engineers happy. ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Ron Fletcher ----- >----- >Aero Automatic ----- >----- >Phoenix, AZ ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:07 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Even though the clouds are 3'-11 and technically under ----- >----- >the 4'-0 rule ----- >----- >(8.6.5.3.3) with only 1'-0 up to 4'-0 between the panels ----- >----- >what will the effective spray pattern be from heads ----- >----- >installed at the underside of the roof deck? If you had ----- >----- >4 panels with only 12" between the panels you've ----- >----- >essentially got a 16x16 ft obstruction and would you ----- >----- >really expect sprinklers to effectively extinguish a ----- >----- >fire below such an assembly? Also while we're ----- >----- >discussing obstruction to water spray, what about ----- >----- >diversion of combustion gasses to sprinklers not near ----- >----- >the actual fire source? Is this considered? ----- >----- > ----- >----- >I don't know if the 3'-11 measurement is off the actual ----- >----- >cloud/ a shop drawing or off of an architectural ----- >----- >drawing. If you're scaling something off a cad drawing ----- >----- >I wouldn't try to call it that close, chances are it'll ----- >----- >be 48"+. What did Dirty Harry say, "do ya feel lucky?" ----- >.................. ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Craig L. Prahl, CET ----- >----- >Fire Protection Group ----- >----- >Mechanical Department ----- >----- >CH2MHILL ----- >----- >Lockwood Greene ----- >----- >1500 International Drive ----- >----- >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 ----- >----- >Direct - 864.599.4102 ----- >----- >Fax - 864.599.8439 ----- >----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >http://www.lg.com ----- >----- > ----- >----- > ----- >----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >----- >Behalf Of Rapid Fire - Bismarck ----- >----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:18 PM ----- >----- >To: [email protected] ----- >----- >Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room ----- >----- > ----- >----- >I appreciate all's input on the matter. (Taking ----- >8.6.5.2.1.4 into ----- >----- >consideration) Though I'm 'nickel and dime'ing the ----- >----- >situation - measurement of the panels are 3'-11" square. ----- >----- > Whew! Under 4'!! Seriously though - in a room ----- >----- >measuring 48'-9" square, there's 56 of these panels! ½" ----- >----- >have a convex contour... the others - concave. ----- >----- >I'll be making a call to the respective A.H.J. and get ----- >----- >his take on it. ----- >----- > ----- >----- >Thanks again! ----- >----- > ----- >----- >No virus found in this outgoing message. ----- >----- >Checked by AVG Free Edition. ----- >----- >Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - ----- >----- >Release Date: 8/14/2007 ----- >----- >5:19 PM ----- >----- > ----- >----- >_______________________________________________ ----- >----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list ----- >----- >[email protected] ----- >----- ----- >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ----- >----- > ----- >----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email ----- >----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ----- >----- >_______________________________________________ ----- >----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list ----- >----- >[email protected] ----- >----- ----- >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ----- >----- > ----- >----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email ----- >----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ----- >----- >_______________________________________________ ----- >----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list ----- >----- >[email protected] ----- >----- ----- >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ----- >----- > ----- >----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email ----- >----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ----- >----- > ----- >----- >No virus found in this incoming message. ----- >----- >Checked by AVG Free Edition. ----- >----- >Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - 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