Ron, The scenario you described (and loss of smoke alarms when the power is cutout as well) creates whats referred to as an unsafe structure (lack of fire protection). The building is posted, fire department advised and occupancy prohibited until protection is restored. The order to restore such protection usually comes with a 24 hour compliance time period. And yes theres a code reference; 2006 IFC 901.4.1, 901.6, 901.7 That's the model code, some states exempt owner occupied single family homes.
Interestingly and as can be expected theres two sides to this argument. I agree with you on the 13D's since its clear that 13D is intended for occupant life safety by maintaining limited egress tenability. The IBC/IRC backs that up since tradeups normally associated with 13 and 13R arent given for 13D. With that said however 13D's have such a great track record in controlling and or extinguishing fires how about illegal occupants (squatters), candles and other survival methods of illumination and heat. Now we're back to life safety of firefighters. (Remember Worcester Mass and the recent fire in NYC where squatters were found deceased). No easy answers, but ground may have to be given in order to get sprinklers in occupied homes. We ought address this issue. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:02 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Residential water lines and meters for fire sprinkler systems Dave, This is a pet peeve of mine. If indeed 13D is a life-safety system only then we only care about it when the building is occupied. Since it is illegal to occupy a building in which the water has been shut-off (i'll bet that anybody living anywhere in the US can find a health code that disallows occupancy of a residence without water) there's no problem with shutting off sprinkler water to an unoccupied or momentarily about to be unoccupied residence. Stuff like this (purveyors demanding extras for spurious reasons and AHJs just having to have property protection at all costs) is just ammunition for NAHB/BIA. Let's get residential sprinklers by supporting cheap life safety systems and then when we've got them by the parts we can up the ante. Didn't I just do this rant last week? On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:25 PM, David M. Canham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A friend of mine installed sprinklers in his home only to be told he had to > add a second water feed in addition to the 1" line he had installed > anticipating the sprinkler demand. The local water supplier feels that all > home with residential sprinklers must have separate water lines from the > street just like any other commercial building. Their logic seems based on > wanting to be able to shut off the water for nonpayment without shutting off > the sprinklers. The local fire chief went to a water board meeting and > seems to feel he would rather they not install residential sprinklers if he > can't have separate lines and shut off valves to the street. Seems like a > strange way to support life safety. Many towns in MA and RI are taking the > same approach, thus forcing owners to abandon the idea or shell out extra > money for a tank. They don't seem to have an issue with shutting the > electricity off and killing the tank and pump but it is not OK to shut off > the water. > > Dave Canham > Fire Systems Solutions > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan J. Smith > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:27 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Residential water lines and meters for fire sprinkler systems > > Thank you to everyone that has shared their experience on this. Educating > and "negotiating" with these water purveyors who are applying excessive > hook-up fees for "fund raising" is going to be critical for public support > in communities where this is a problem. > > I echo Steve's comment that "public education will win out in the end," but > public education alone is a very slow process when it comes to prevention. > Most people just don't make prevention a priority until after something > happens to them. > > I hope everyone is doing what they can to encourage their local voting > government officials to vote for residential fire sprinkler requirements in > the IRC at the final hearing this September. > > Until the IRC is updated, we will continue to fight an uphill battle that > most homeowners don't have the willingness to engage in. I tend to be a > conservative, but this is one case where I believe the government's > responsibility for public safety requires legislation. > > Ryan J. Smith > > ResidentialFireSprinklers.com - Your Source for Home Fire Protection > http://www.ResidentialFireSprinklers.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:16 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Residential water lines and meters for fire sprinkler systems > > I actually have to credit the blogger - he's got a pretty egalitarian > venue going there. Matthew's mail corrupted the link - it's here for > cut and paste: > > http://www.scottprogers.com/blog/archives/2008/06/the-heated-debate-of-r > esidential-fire-sprinklers_1213674275/index.php?f=1 > > Anyone with a couple spare moments can read through the comment thread > and post their own - PUBLIC EDUCATION will win out in the end!! > > Steve Leyton > Protection Design & Consulting > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew > J. Willis > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:58 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Residential water lines and meters for fire sprinkler > systems > > http://www.scottprogers.com/blog/archives/2008/06/the-heated-debate-of-r > esid > ential-fire-sprinklers_1213674275/index.php?f=1 > > Ryan.. You made the news! :-) > > > Matthew J. Willis > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. > 1160 McKenzie Rd. > PO Box 877 > Cantonment, FL. 32533 > 850-937-1850 Voice > 850-937-1852 Facsimile > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Ryan J. Smith > ----- ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ----- >> I am engaged in a "friendly" and somewhat public > ----- >debate with a realtor > ----- >in > ----- >> the Shenandoah Valley, Virginia area on the use > ----- >residential fire > ----- >sprinklers. > ----- >> He has been educated by the home builders anti residential fire > ----- >sprinkler > ----- >> material and has been convincing others not to support > ----- >the proposed > ----- >code > ----- >> changes to the IRC. > ----- >> > ----- >> The two arguments he is focusing on are: > ----- >> 1. Installing a residential fire sprinkler would > ----- >require different > ----- >water > ----- >> (more expensive) lines and water meters 2. It is difficult (or > ----- >> impossible) to use a water softener in tandem > ----- >with a > ----- >> residential fire sprinkler system without having to > ----- >add a second > ----- >incoming > ----- >> water line and water meter > ----- >> > ----- >> These concerns seem way overstated, especially the > ----- >second since the > ----- >water > ----- >> softener could simply be installed to the domestic > ----- >supply without > ----- >affecting > ----- >> the fire sprinkler water supply. > ----- >> > ----- >> Does anyone have any experience with the first concern > ----- >about secondary > ----- >water > ----- >> lines and meters being needed? My understanding is > ----- >that this would > ----- >rarely > ----- >> be needed only under special circumstances, but I > ----- >wanted to check > ----- >before > ----- >> posting my rebuttal. > ----- >> > ----- >> Thanks, > ----- >> > ----- >> Ryan J. Smith > ----- >> > ----- >> ResidentialFireSprinklers.com - Your Voice in Home > ----- >Fire Protection > ----- >> http://www.ResidentialFireSprinklers.com > ----- >> > ----- >> > ----- >> > ----- >> _______________________________________________ > ----- >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > ----- >> [email protected] > ----- >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > ----- >> > ----- >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > ----- >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > ----- >> > ----- > > ----- > > ----- > > ----- >-- > ----- >Ron Greenman > ----- >at home.... > ----- >_______________________________________________ > ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list > ----- >[email protected] > ----- >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > ----- > > ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email > ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > ----- >_______________________________________________ > ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list > ----- >[email protected] > ----- >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > ----- > > ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email > ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
