More great information, thanks for your input I have learned a lot. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 3:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Its important to keep the context of the building code clear. First 2006 IBC Section 704 applies to EXTERIOR WALLS. 2006 IBC 704.12 "Opening Protection" applies to; "WINDOWS in EXTERIOR WALLS REQUIRED to have protected openings in accordance with other sections of this code OR determined to be protected in accordance with Section 704.3 (Buildings on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings & Table 704.8 Fire Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.5 ("Fire protection rated glazing", i.e. wired glass, ceramic glass.....rated materials NOT reliant on sprinkler protection) In summary windows in exterior walls that are required to be protected openings by the building code must be protected by fire protection rated glazing. The balance of Section 704.12 reads; OTHER OPENINGS REQUIRED to be protected with FIRE DOOR or SHUTTER ASSEMBLIES in accordance with Section 704.3 (Buildings on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings & Table 704.8 Fire Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.4 ("Fire Door and shutter assemblies"....rated doors, closers, rolling shutters......rated materials NOT reliant on sprinkler protection, well almost glazing in doors exceeding 100 s.i. isn't required to comply with the 450F maximum end point where the building is equipped throughout with NFPA-13 or 13R sprinklers) In summary openings other then windows in exterior walls that are required to be protected by the building code must be protected by fire door or shutter assemblies. That's it, with one minor exception for 100 s.i. glazing in doors no sprinklers !. Oh...the EXCEPTION to IBC 704.12..................... "OPENING PROTECTIVES are NOT required where the building is protected THROUGHOUT by an automatic sprinkler system AND the EXTERIOR OPENINGS are protected by an APPROVED WATER CURTAIN using automatic sprinklers approved for that use. In summary, a DESIGN PROFESSIONAL can tradeoff the "Fire protective rated glazing", "fire doors" and "shutter assemblies" by sprinklering the building throughout and protecting the openings with an approved water curtain. But remember its an EXCEPTION and not a REQUIREMENT. Exceptions ONLY apply where the designer of record stipulates to the code official they are taking the exception, not the other way around ! There is one more thing.........In New Jersey, Engineers like Chris and Scot can submit an APPLICATION FOR VARIATION-F160A requesting relief from the prescribed requirements of the code where compliance with said provisions would result in practical difficulties by submitting an alternative that will still protect the health, safety and welfare of the occupants. However, the operative word in this process is PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY, not financial, don't agree with the code, slept poorly the night before, etc. etc. Keep in mind also that a code official is not obligated to approve an application for variation, but rather it is an avenue that is open for consideration. Sincerely, John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Safe Buildings Save Lives ! -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 2:52 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers You DO NOT need building code permission use these heads in an unsprinklered building. They comply with the building code. The building code requires a rated wall. We prove ratings through listing agencies performing tests. WS heads passed the same tests as every other type of rated wall. They put a glass wall in a furnace with a WS head and lit the fire. They measure the temperature on the cold side as prescribed in the test. The only subtle problem I recall is the temperature didn't quite work out because the water absorbed too many BTU's. No I don't have a UL directory handy. I expect if you look it up under 2 hr walls you will find a variety of sheetrock based solutions, concrete solutions and at least one glass solution using WS heads. I recall this as there is at least one of these in the City of St. Paul, rated glass wall in an unsprinklered building using WS heads. I had to approve it in my capacity of the reviewing authority because it met the CODE. I didn't like it but my OPINION has little bearing when you meet the letter of the CODE. Now in MY ENGINEERING OPINION I think it's a bad idea to use these in an otherwise unsprinkler building. No I don't have a solid basis for this opinion, call it 'cuz. I also think it's a bad idea not to sprinkler everything. Additionally, for the most part I don't see the value of rated walls in the first place in sprinklered buildings. As an engineer I don't see the value of WS's either way. Going to many fires as a firefighter I don't see the value of rated walls either. Sprinkler it and the rest doesn't matter! Also to Justin's comment - It's been a very long time since I read the original report. As I recall the heads were not open at the start of the test. The trick to keeping the glass from breaking before the head fused is what lead to the pony wall requirement. With a couple inches between the glass and a fire the head fuses and all is well. Push the fire right up against the glass and it cracked before the head fused. This problem was tested in the original report I read in like 1996. I certainly accept my memory can be flawed. I've hit my head too many times to not have done some damage. I also like liquor, perhaps I killed some of the brain cells in this WS area. Living healthy is the slowest and most boring way to die. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 11:16 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Yes but the building code does not! So I guess where you have no building code your OK. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... .... Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 9:57 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Window Sprinklers Thank you for this criticism. That is what makes this forum really useful as a tool. bare-knuckled debate. I never said i was not the fool. But being an engineer, well, some people consider a license to prove me a fool. I admit it. don't need to prove it. Fire away, all day and all night. I'll take the bullets if that is what it takes to learn the lesson and get the design tight. from a couple of stitches back on this "dead thread." " ... The cut sheet supports this in "Based on this successful testing, the Model WS Specific Application Window Sprinkler can be used as interior protection of windows or glazing in a sprinklered building or non-sprinklered building." scot deal excelsior fire ********************* On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Thom McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > This thread has already gone on way too long but I can't let this slide. > > Scott: [sic] ...your already outside the scope of the listing and the > building code, so your using your "Engineer" Status _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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