The only hole in the thinking of the "experts" is their opinions are based
on WAG not SWAG to my knowledge. I'm not suggesting they are wrong. I'd
trust their knowledge a bit more if they had some test data (which doesn't
exist) or at least some examples of fires and the outcome. Sure would be
nice if they point to a fire with ESFR that was successfully contained. Has
that happened and I'm not aware definitely probable.
Think of it like this you see a problem with system and the contractor says
well I've always done it like that. Doesn't make it right does it?
And ESFR scares me a bit with its tendency to either work fully or burn the
place down. At least with density systems there is a little reserve in my
experience.
And I'm totally comfortable if Elley or Rolf sign the design as EOR. Make
it LH and I'm cool with their design.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
Waverly, MN 55390
-----Original Message-----
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ray Vance
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: PODs storage again
Travis,
This product commodity falls within the same parameters as boat storage -
there is no prescriptive requirement to follow.
In fact, NFPA has issued a "statement" this particular type of storage
arrangement is outside the scope of NFPA-13.
That being said, I have done a fair amount of research into the PODS type
storage arrangements for my own education and can offer the following as a
starting point (guidelines) for your consideration.
(A) I spoke, at length, with Ms. Elley Klausbruckner at Klausbruckner and
Assoc. regarding the general requirements for this PODS type storage and
specifically about your particular type of storage arrangement. Ms.
Klausbruckner is a fire protection engineer and specializes in HPR risk
analysis and protection and has been involved in many warehouse storage
arrangements of this PODS/Crate type storage, including the brand name PODS
facilities.
(B) In all cases except one, they have designed the fire sprinkler system as
an Exposed, Unnexpanded, Group-A plastic commodity storage arrangement.
(C) In all cases except one, they have designed utilizing ESFR sprinklers,
unless the building construction prohibited the ESFR protection. In the
scenario where the building construction would not allow ESFR, they designed
utilizing the area/density method for the appropriate storage height.
(D) In the one case where they did NOT protect as a Group-A plastic
commodity the pods/crates were constructed entirely of wood. In this
scenario they required a letter from the owner of the facility that the
amount of Group-A plastics within the pods/crates at any time were less than
5% to 15% by weight or 5% to 25% by volume. The crate itself was treated as
part of the unit load and the entire unit load was classified as a Class-IV
commodity.
(E) For reference, upholstered furniture is classified as a Class-IV
commodity per the IFC 2303.5 (See IFC Figure 2303.7.4)
(F) Tyco Fire Products, per their own internal technical document also
indicates ESFR protection for PODS type storage that have plastic tops on
the containers.
(G) An analysis done by Rolf Jensen and Associates and written up in the
2006 Edition of Fire Protection Engineering Magazine suggests the use of
ESFR sprinklers for the Group-A plastics scenario as well, but also
indicates a dual design area/density as another design option.
I know some of our esteemed colleagues are still not entirely comfortable
with the determination of the protection schemes for this particular type of
storage and there is NO prescriptive direction from NFPA on the subject.
However, they have been and are being built all over the country and are
being sprinklered in some fashion. We can only provide the protection scheme
that is most consistant with the "experts" in our field, FP engineers with
risk analysis experience, and provide the protection scheme as determined by
them.
The consensus from my personal research, at least at this point, is to
protect as an Exposed, Unexpanded, Group-A plastic commodity and provide
ESFR protection if the building construction allows.
I implore those of you with the expertise above and beyond what Travis and I
have to weigh in and provide your insights and experiences into this
commodity storage.
As always, have and AWESOME day!
Ray Vance - SET
Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc.
www.waynefire.com
(407) 877-5563 office
(321) 436-2184 mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack,
SET
Sent: 2009-03-30 5:30 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: PODs storage again
I tried to search the archives, but keep getting a file not found error. I
am looking at a PODs storage warehouse. There was a lot of discussion on
the forums a while back, but I can't access all of it. The facility I am
looking at has 24' storage.
What is the general concensus of the protection req'd for these areas?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Travis Mack, SET
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