Depending on the elevation, might need HP heads. And at the lowest level, use K2.8 and you'll have a mist system suitable for the powerhouse.
Scuppers would be essential! -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Inadequte Water You might have something there George but maybe sidewalls screwed into the back wall. Pattern development after all. On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 7:25 AM, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: > Wouldn't fusible plugs been able to take care of the powerhouse?? > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:10 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Inadequte Water > > Ben, > > I've heard that tactic referred to as "Interference of Mission." > Somewhat like some of the AHJs NOT on this Forum base commanders tend > to think their positions imbue them with special powers like the > ability to engineer based on their powers of divination. I once had a > deputy commander from the Corps tell me you couldn't sprinkler a > hydroelectric powerhouse because there wasn't enough water. When I > pointed out he had the second largest river in North America backed up > behind his dam he told me I couldn't use that water. Maybe he figured > he needed all that water to run his generators even during a fire. I > don't know but it was frustrating at the time and an amusing story > now. > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 5:10 AM, Ben Young <[email protected]> > wrote: >> As someone who worked overseas for the military for two years, I can tell >> you that while that may be the intended goal of the UFC, it is barely >> enforced overseas. Usually all an installation commander has to do to get >> around the requirements of the UFC is to simply make an 'expeditionary' >> exemption. >> >> The UFC may be a great idea, but its execution outside of permanent bases > in >> Europe and Japan/Korea is awful. >> >> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >>> Chris, >>> >>> When the UFC was going through it's first iterations I was doing a lot >>> of work with the Navy and one of the inspectors I was working with was >>> very involved in commenting on the development of the document. He >>> often asked for advice or just used me for a sounding board. This >>> document was developed to meet the needs of the Navy, Army and Air >>> Force anywhere in the world. There are requirements that far surpass >>> those of the civilian world and most were debated. This was back in >>> the mid nineties and you've seen how many drafts there have been >>> since. This is the military and like a nuclear power plant the usual >>> rules just don't apply. I hate waste in government as much as anyone >>> but this is a case where the more stringent requirements were >>> thoroughly vetted and justified. As a side note there's a few things >>> that are less onerous than in the civilian standards. Take care. >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Rod DiBona <[email protected]> > wrote: >>> > Steve, >>> > >>> > The 3,000 ft design area is unexplainable. We have just learned that it >>> is what it is. These systems just cost more and we make more money. Is it >>> good use of taxpayer money...I don't think so but what do you do? If the >>> system now needs a tank and a pump then sell it to the government and > again >>> make more money. I had a similar situation and presented the facts to the >>> gov't and when I came with my proposal for tank and pump in hand they > were >>> way more willing to negotiate. In my case we "reduced" our hose down to > 250 >>> as the building was mainly light hazard and they took away one of the >>> increasers for either dry or sloped since the area was already increased > and >>> then it worked. Bottom line is that it is their requirements and if they >>> want to enforce it they will have to pay for it. I also have it in my > mind >>> that there is an exception to mechanical room hazard classification for >>> rooms under 400 ft. I think this is why you can run cpvc piping in a > small >>> mech room. So if that is the case maybe you can go from 500 to 250 hose. >>> Doesn't look like it would make the difference for you but it would be >>> closer. >>> > >>> > Rod DiBona >>> > Rapid Fire >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Kowkabany >>> > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:24 PM >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Subject: RE: Inadequte Water >>> > >>> > Ben, >>> > >>> > I've had this referenced and enforced by the Navy twice in the last 3 >>> > months. Even if it is a draft, we are abiding by what the government >>> says >>> > as they are the AHJ for these projects. >>> > >>> > >>> > Steve Kowkabany, P.E. >>> > Fire Protection Engineer >>> > Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC >>> > 616 Davis Street >>> > Neptune Beach, FL 32266 >>> > 904-652-4200 Phone >>> > 904-212-0868 Fax >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: [email protected] >>> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben > Young >>> > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 3:32 PM >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Subject: Re: Inadequte Water >>> > >>> > Steve, >>> > >>> > Is this requirement also in a spec, or are you basing this requirement >>> > solely on the section of the draft copy of 3-600-10N? >>> > >>> > If its the latter, I don't believe that a draft copy of a new UFC > series >>> is >>> > in enforceable. I stopped doing government work two months ago, so >>> unless >>> > something has changed since then, the only thing you have to worry > about >>> is >>> > 3-600-01 and the project's UFGS spec. >>> > >>> > If someone from the corps is referencing this standard, I think you may >>> want >>> > to ask why they're using a draft document. >>> > >>> > -Ben >>> > >>> > On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Steve Kowkabany >>> > <[email protected]>wrote: >>> > >>> >> Mark, >>> >> >>> >> Like Steve said, the requirement comes from the UFC codes - section > and >>> >> verse below >>> >> >>> >> 2-3.1.1.1 Hydraulic calculations must include a minimum pressure drop >>> >> across >>> >> backflow preventers of 12 psi (82.7 kPa), or the actual pressure drop, >>> >> whichever is greater, regardless of type or size. >>> >> >>> >> What really gets me about this is that I think this is because they > are >>> >> afraid that eventually an RPZ will be put in and they want to design > for >>> >> that, but even some of the new RPZ's now can be designed for less than >>> 12 >>> >> psi and many times increase can put you into a fire pump. Also, once > a >>> >> double-check is deemed acceptable as the BFP, very little is likely to >>> >> change that would require adding an RPZ - short of adding an > antifreeze >>> >> loop >>> >> or something. >>> >> >>> >> I'm with you on the 3,000 sqft design area. It makes no sense to me. > I >>> >> could see increasing the density, because suppression is all about >>> > delivery >>> >> rate, but doubling the design area just adds a lot of unnecessary > water >>> in >>> >> my opinion. >>> >> >>> >> Any government folks know where those requirements originate from? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Steve Kowkabany, P.E. >>> >> Fire Protection Engineer >>> >> Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC >>> >> 616 Davis Street >>> >> Neptune Beach, FL 32266 >>> >> 904-652-4200 Phone >>> >> 904-212-0868 Fax >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: [email protected] >>> >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark >>> >> Sornsin >>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:12 AM >>> >> To: '[email protected]' >>> >> Subject: RE: Inadequte Water >>> >> >>> >> Steve: >>> >> >>> >> Which UFL standard is requiring the 12 psi drop across the backflow? >>> This >>> >> is the second time I've heard of this but have not yet had to deal > with >>> it >>> >> (I don't know why not). >>> >> >>> >> I would LOVE to have a sit-down with the 'powers that be' responsible >>> for >>> >> the UFC standards. E.g. where do they get the 3,000 sq.ft design area >>> > crap? >>> >> They say it's common HPR requirements in the civilian world - except I >>> >> worked for FM and we NEVER required 3,000 sq.ft. design areas for > light >>> or >>> >> ordinary hazard-equivalent occupancies. Maybe they just want to cover >>> >> themselves in case a combustible concealed space appears... >>> >> >>> >> Mark A. Sornsin, PE >>> >> Fire Protection Engineer >>> >> Ulteig Engineers, Inc. >>> >> 3350 38th Avenue S. >>> >> Fargo, ND 58104-7079 >>> >> >>> >> Direct: 701. 280.8591 >>> >> Fax: 701.280.8739 >>> >> Cell: 701.371.5759 >>> >> >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> www.ulteig.com >>> >> >>> >> Confidentiality Notice >>> >> This message may contain privileged and confidential information. If > you >>> >> think, for any reason, this message may have been addressed to you in >>> >> error, >>> >> you must not disseminate copy or take any action in reliance on it, >>> and >>> >> we >>> >> would ask you to notify me immediately by return email to >>> >> [email protected]. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: [email protected] >>> >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve >>> >> Kowkabany >>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 AM >>> >> To: [email protected] >>> >> Subject: RE: Inadequte Water >>> >> >>> >> I have the single most frustrating water issue I have ever had going > on >>> >> right now Greg. I am working on this small commercial entrance > facility >>> > at >>> >> a military base in Georgia. We are only sprinklering a small 3,800 > sqft >>> >> cargo transfer building and getting the water from the local utility >>> > rather >>> >> than the base. >>> >> >>> >> We designed based on modeling data that was the only thing available > at >>> >> design (there was no water within a mile then) and had no problem > making >>> >> the >>> >> small light hazard wet system work. >>> >> >>> >> Last week the underground was finally finished and we had our main run >>> up >>> >> to >>> >> the building and some nearby hydrants to test, so we tested them - > 55/25 >>> > at >>> >> 750 gpm. Bad water but still enough to make an little light hazard > wet >>> >> system work right? >>> >> >>> >> Not once you take a 3,000 sqft design area, a 500 gpm hose allowance > due >>> > to >>> >> the presence of 300 sqft of OH1 rooms, and a mandatory 12 psi pressure >>> >> across the BFP regardless of the fact that it is actually a > double-check >>> - >>> >> all mandatory per UFC codes. After all that, you need 850 gpm at 40 > psi >>> > to >>> >> make this system work and we are looking at a pump and a tank! >>> >> >>> >> It's a very frustrating situation, so feel free to tell your AHJ he is >>> not >>> >> alone. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Steve Kowkabany, P.E. >>> >> Fire Protection Engineer >>> >> Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC >>> >> 616 Davis Street >>> >> Neptune Beach, FL 32266 >>> >> 904-652-4200 Phone >>> >> 904-212-0868 Fax >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >> >>> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >> >>> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> > > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire > sprinkler.org> >>> <to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >>> > sprinkler.org> >>> >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.111/2386 - Release Date: >>> > 09/24/09 >>> >> 05:52:00 >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >> >>> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >> >>> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> > > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire > sprinkler.org> >>> <to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >>> > sprinkler.org> >>> >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> > >>> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> > >>> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire > sprinkler.org> >>> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> > No virus found in this incoming message. >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.111/2386 - Release Date: >>> 09/24/09 >>> > 05:52:00 >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> > >>> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> > >>> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire > sprinkler.org> >>> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> > >>> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> > >>> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire > sprinkler.org> >>> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ron Greenman >>> Instructor >>> Fire Protection Engineering >>> Bates Technical College >>> Tacoma, WA >>> >>> Member: >>> SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire > sprinkler.org> >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering > Bates Technical College > Tacoma, WA > > Member: > SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
