Which is why 1, we last few taxpayers are annoyed to say the least and 2, we continue to exercise our right to petition the govt even through the lowly AFSA forum. I know you are towing the company line just as I would in your shoes. If you get called in on the carpet again just tell them some day some one inside the govt will have the balls to make some changes. Until then we will wonder why the govt is so far out of step with the private sector. I love how the politicians wave back and forth between govt should be more like private sector and the private sector is evil. What was really funny 10 years ago now was watching the GSA guy in the ICode hearings argue against everything that might cost more money only to have the same govt agency write IMHO overkill specs.
Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Inadequte Water Their requirements are, in some ways, without merit, but are rigidly enforced from a contractual standpoint. Thank You Rahe Loftin, P.E. Region 7 - GSA Office - 817-978-7299 Fax - 817-978-8644 Cell - 817-371-3102 "Steve Kowkabany" <st...@neptunefpe To .com> <[email protected]> Sent by: cc sprinklerforum-bo un...@firesprinkl Subject er.org RE: Inadequte Water 09/24/2009 02:17 PM Please respond to sprinklerfo...@fi resprinkler.org Mark, Like Steve said, the requirement comes from the UFC codes - section and verse below 2-3.1.1.1 Hydraulic calculations must include a minimum pressure drop across backflow preventers of 12 psi (82.7 kPa), or the actual pressure drop, whichever is greater, regardless of type or size. What really gets me about this is that I think this is because they are afraid that eventually an RPZ will be put in and they want to design for that, but even some of the new RPZ's now can be designed for less than 12 psi and many times increase can put you into a fire pump. Also, once a double-check is deemed acceptable as the BFP, very little is likely to change that would require adding an RPZ - short of adding an antifreeze loop or something. I'm with you on the 3,000 sqft design area. It makes no sense to me. I could see increasing the density, because suppression is all about delivery rate, but doubling the design area just adds a lot of unnecessary water in my opinion. Any government folks know where those requirements originate from? Steve Kowkabany, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC 616 Davis Street Neptune Beach, FL 32266 904-652-4200 Phone 904-212-0868 Fax -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:12 AM To: '[email protected]' Subject: RE: Inadequte Water Steve: Which UFL standard is requiring the 12 psi drop across the backflow? This is the second time I've heard of this but have not yet had to deal with it (I don't know why not). I would LOVE to have a sit-down with the 'powers that be' responsible for the UFC standards. E.g. where do they get the 3,000 sq.ft design area crap? They say it's common HPR requirements in the civilian world - except I worked for FM and we NEVER required 3,000 sq.ft. design areas for light or ordinary hazard-equivalent occupancies. Maybe they just want to cover themselves in case a combustible concealed space appears... Mark A. Sornsin, PE Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc. 3350 38th Avenue S. Fargo, ND 58104-7079 Direct: 701. 280.8591 Fax: 701.280.8739 Cell: 701.371.5759 [email protected] www.ulteig.com Confidentiality Notice This message may contain privileged and confidential information. If you think, for any reason, this message may have been addressed to you in error, you must not disseminate copy or take any action in reliance on it, and we would ask you to notify me immediately by return email to [email protected]. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Kowkabany Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Inadequte Water I have the single most frustrating water issue I have ever had going on right now Greg. I am working on this small commercial entrance facility at a military base in Georgia. We are only sprinklering a small 3,800 sqft cargo transfer building and getting the water from the local utility rather than the base. We designed based on modeling data that was the only thing available at design (there was no water within a mile then) and had no problem making the small light hazard wet system work. Last week the underground was finally finished and we had our main run up to the building and some nearby hydrants to test, so we tested them - 55/25 at 750 gpm. Bad water but still enough to make an little light hazard wet system work right? Not once you take a 3,000 sqft design area, a 500 gpm hose allowance due to the presence of 300 sqft of OH1 rooms, and a mandatory 12 psi pressure across the BFP regardless of the fact that it is actually a double-check - all mandatory per UFC codes. After all that, you need 850 gpm at 40 psi to make this system work and we are looking at a pump and a tank! It's a very frustrating situation, so feel free to tell your AHJ he is not alone. Steve Kowkabany, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC 616 Davis Street Neptune Beach, FL 32266 904-652-4200 Phone 904-212-0868 Fax _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. 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