I think the piping serving heads is called a branch line, not a riser. A riser supplies a system. I didn't dig out the definitions lest we fall into the trap Bill Brooks found himself in awhile back- but I'd think the INTENT of the committee was to have flanged joints on risers not sprigs or "vertical branch lines".
Hey, they make flanges for CPVC, don't they? Tell him if he insists on getting this portion complied with, what good are they when they're buried behind drywall? And unless an impairment is extended, who'd seriously run around and cap them all off, anyway? glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: System subdivision The section he was referring to in 13 states that "where individual floor/zone control valves are not provided, a flanged joint or mechanical coupling shall be used at the riser at each floor for connections to piping serving floor areas in excess of 5000 SQ FT". Since each floor was over 5000 SQ FT, our bird cage system could not be used since we could not isolate the floors in case of system impairment. Dewayne -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:37 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: System subdivision I'd ask em where in 13R it says you cannot do the individual risers, 13 or 13R or 13D. Short of a high rise needing zoning by floor (I think, we don't encounter many) we use them in 13R and d all the time, and also did one in a 13 hotel, 4-story over parking garage with rental spaces on 1st that kicked it out of 13R (as did the garage but since it was subterranean, there was a leg to stand on, removed by the rental space not incidental to the residential nature of a hotel). glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:21 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: System subdivision Thanks for all the replies. I got the same answer back from NFPA that 13 applies to 13 not 13R. Dewayne -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joe Burtell Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:04 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: System subdivision Remind him this is a 13R system and per NFPA 13R 02' 6.7.2.1 For areas outside the dwelling unit, the following criteria shall comply with specifications in NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, unless permitted by 6.7.2.2 and 6.7.2.3: (1) Design discharge (2) Number of design sprinklers (3) Sprinkler coverage (4) Position of sprinklers These are the only 4 things we fall back to NFPA 13 for. There are a few other little things like hangers and EQ bracing but system subdivision is not one of them. We have done the bird cage design for years and no one has ever said a word. Best regards, Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS Burtell Fire Protection Phone: 406.652.7697 Fax: 406.652.7743 Cell: 406.861.4507 Email: [email protected] Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com P please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 8:40 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: System subdivision Yes this is a 13R birdcage system that the AHJ is telling us that it is not allowed. He stated 8.15.21 as his basis for requiring horizontal piping on each floor. Since this reference is out of 13 I didn't think it applied to a 13R system. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:03 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: System subdivision Dewayne, I didn't look up the section you mentioned but it sounds like you are describing a "bird-cage" system. We used them a lot in 13R in cold climates to eliminate the need to have any piping in the attic areas that could be subject to freezing. You lose the ability to control or zone the floors but it is sometimes the best approach for the building owner to keep everything wet and avoid A/F which is more labor intensive and costly to maintain. If this is not what you were asking, sorry. Cliff Whitfield, SET Fire Design, Inc. 3784 Holly Ridge Trail Marianna, FL 32448 Phone: 850-526-1886 Fax: 850-526-1884 Cell: 850-557-1886 www.fire-design.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: System subdivision A) Can section NFPA 13 (07ed) 8.15.21 be applied to NFPA 13R sprinklered building? B)Can a multiple floor building, not a high rise, be supplied with sprinkler piping with the following arrangement and still comply with section 8.15.21? 1st floor supplied by horizontal piping with upper floors supplied by individual rises to sprinklers from 1st floor horizontal piping? Thanks, Dewayne Martinez Design Build Fire Protection New Berlin, WI _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
