There is no practical way to run a flow test on the copper. This is one of several issues at this site including a significant drop in residual pressures in the building. My guess is that the final solution will be to replace the main. Given that we had 16-18" of snow this weekend, nobody is going to like that (although it is supposed to be in the 50s on Saturday)
At 07:39 AM 12/21/2009, you wrote: >Todd, is it possible to run a flow test at the end of the copper line to >simply measure the real thing instead of degrading it? > >We'd had an AHJ want to degrade DI UG down to C=80 or 90, until we removed a >section and showed it to him- clean as a whistle, allowed C=140 after all. > >glc > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams >Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 7:16 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: C factor in old copper pipe > >I have no problem with C120 for the pipe from a >technical standpoint, but it does make the calcs >go over the curve. (2/3 of the system friction >loss is in the underground). I have no idea how >old the pipe is and there is no cathodic >protection that I am aware of. As far as where >they came up with the adjustment, see my Botox comment in the previous post. > > > >At 08:39 AM 12/18/2009, you wrote: > >The book I looked in was a Mechanical > >Engineering Reference Manual. It has a wider > >range of materials listed than 13, so I checked > >there. I don't know that 13 requires any > >downgrade for copper - I don't really run into > >copper sprinkler pipe all that often. The only > >thing that I could say is that from a standpoint > >of the actual performance of the pipe, it is > >possible that it could have aged to a point > >where its c-value is 120. Out of curiosity: how > >old is the pipe? Also, how did the water company > >come up with the adjustment? Do they have > >cathodic protection of their underground copper lines? > > > >Does the change have a major effect on your calcs? > > > >Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP > >Sales Engineer > >Alliance Fire Protection > >*Licensed in KS & MO > > > >913.888.0647 ph > >913.888.0618 f > >913.927.0222 cell > >www. AFPsprink.com > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: [email protected] > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd >Williams > >Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 5:59 PM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: RE: C factor in old copper pipe > > > >The 13 handbook commentary for 14.4.4.5 (2002) > >does not include any decrease for copper and I > >have never used one. 2010 has similar language. > >The FP handbook does not address it. My > >questioning is on the degradation of copper pipe > >and decrease in C Factor because of it. Never > >heard of it before. This water department person > >tends to pull things out of his Botox, but I want > >to be sure before I challenge him. > > > > > >At 06:28 PM 12/17/2009, you wrote: > > >My reference manual lists the range for copper > > >as 150-120. So I would say it is within reason. > > > > > >Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP > > >Sales Engineer > > >Alliance Fire Protection > > >*Licensed in KS & MO > > > > > >913.888.0647 ph > > >913.888.0618 f > > >913.927.0222 cell > > >www. AFPsprink.com > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: [email protected] > > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd >Williams > > >Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 5:08 PM > > >To: [email protected] > > >Subject: C factor in old copper pipe > > > > > >I am working on a 13D system which is fed by a copper pipe from the > > >public supply. I have been asked by the water company (who has review > > >authority in this situation) to decrease the C factor for the copper > > >pipe from 150 to 120 due to age. I have done this several times in > > >steel and CI pipe, but never in copper. Is this appropriate? > > > > > >Todd G. Williams, PE > > >Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > >Stonington, Connecticut > > >www.fpdc.com > > >860.535.2080 > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >Todd G. Williams, PE > >Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >Stonington, Connecticut > >www.fpdc.com > >860.535.2080 > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >Todd G. Williams, PE >Fire Protection Design/Consulting >Stonington, Connecticut >www.fpdc.com >860.535.2080 >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
