So in effect section 11.1.2 really has no value in your opinion, if the rules of the rood design method have to be met as well. Hmm
Thanks, Rich -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 13:20 To: FORUM Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards Rich, For what it is worth, if we understand your original question and situation correctly, I think Ed has it right. (I feel a bit murky on the room details.) 11.1.2 relates to adjacent hazards and how to deal with them. If OH and LH are next to each other, one must calc the sprinklers as OH at least 15 ft into the LH area. Then the rest of the sprinklers can be calced as light hazard. 11.1.2 allows you to calc the sprinklers as OH and LH for their respective areas if there is a "barrier or partition capable of delaying heat from a fire in one area from fusing sprinklers in the adjacent area". Now, if this is one big room (with or without the barrier between hazards), you may use the room design method. It may not make sense to use it, but you could. You just have to meet the requirements of the higher hazard for the wall ratings. For Ordinary Hazard there is no option for picking up two additonal sprinklers in adjacent rooms. One cannot ignore the word ROOM either. If the OH and LH areas are adjacent and not seperated by walls (see the definition of compartment), then it is one room for the purposes of the room design method. And inmy opinion, the walls defining the room must meet the rating for OH. That's my best stab at being clear about a situation I am a little murky on!! It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA 13 Committee on Installation Criteria, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. Sincerely, Cecil Bilbo Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Champaign, IL 217-363-2460 www.sprinkleracademy.com > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:55:14 -0600 > > Rich, I think there is confusion as to what 11.1.2 is calling for. I see > that section as telling us when to extend the more-demanding sprinkler > protection (spacing, density, etc) into adjacent areas that would otherwise > have less-demanding sprinkler protection - but not what sprinks to include > in our design area (be it room design method or otherwise). Subtle but > major difference. > > Example 1: 600 sf OH room surrounded by light hazard. The walls are not > rated and are built (in some odd way) so they don't prevent heat from a fire > in the OH room from activating sprinks beyond the OH room. Per 11.2.3.3.3, > room design method can't be used. So you end up calcing 1500 sf (+_). The > sprinkler protection (spacing, density, etc) within the OH room AND 15' > BEYOND is .20 gpm/sf. The sprinkler protection (spacing, density, etc) in > the remainder of the 1500 is .10 gpm/sf. > > Example 2: 600 sf OH room surrounded by light hazard. The walls are not > rated but are built so they don't allow heat from a fire in the OH room from > activating sprinks beyond the OH room. Per 11.2.3.3.3, room design method > can't be used. So you end up calcing 1500 sf (+_). The sprinkler > protection (spacing, density, etc) within the OH room is .20 gpm/sf. The > sprinkler protection (spacing, density, etc) in the remainder of the 1500 is > .10 gpm/sf. > > Again, I don't think it's about what sprinks to calc, it about what > spacing/density etc are applicable. Other sections tell us what sprinks to > calc. > > On the other hand, I've yet to be told today that I'm wrong, so maybe I'm > due. > > Ed Kramer > Littleton, CO > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:sprinklerforum- > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Richardson, R > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:02 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > Unless you invoke section 11.1.2, in which case none of those features > > are required. > > > > Rich Richardson > > Seattle Fire Department > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:sprinklerforum- > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Eric Tysinger > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 12:00 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > I would say you are correct. Additional heads flowing outside the > > "design room" are only applicable in light hazard where the doors are > > not automatic or self-closing (no rating required). In ordinary hazard > > rooms, there is no option, the doors must be rated and automatic or > > self-closing. In either hazard the walls must be rated to the duration > > of the water supply required. > > > > Thanks, > > Eric Tysinger CET > > NICET III - 108988 > > Designer > > Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. > > 4370 Motorsport Drive > > Concord, NC 28027 > > p: (704)782-3032 x1751 > > f: (704)795-6838 > > C: (239)633-9703 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:sprinklerforum- > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of ParsleyConsulting > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 2:18 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > Rich, > > > > Isn't that requirement in the room design method for additional head(s) > > flowing outside the room design area only applicable to Light Hazard? > > > > I'm probably not understanding the issue, but that seems relevant to me > > from what I read in the room design paragraphs of -13. > > > > -- > > PARSLEY CONSULTING > > Ken Wagoner, SET > > 760.745.6181 voice > > 760.745.0537 fax > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> e-mail > > www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website > > > > > > > > > > Richardson, R wrote: > > > It does meet 11.1.2 (subject to a massive interpretation as to what > > constitutes adequate separation), but does not meet room design because > > the wall is not fire rated, the doors in the wall are not self-closing > > and they are not including two heads outside the OH area as required by > > room design. > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto:sprinklerforum- > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon > > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 10:42 > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > > > Rich: > > > > > > How does your 600 Sf OH space not meet the requirements of 11.1.2(2)? > > And > > > still qualify for room design? > > > > > > Thom McMahon, SET > > > Firetech, Inc. > > > 2560 Copper Ridge Dr > > > P.O. Box 882136 > > > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 > > > Tel: 970-879-7952 > > > Fax: 970-879-7926 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Richardson, R > > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 11:33 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > > > In reference to 2007 NFPA 13 section 11.1.2 Adjacent Hazards, is this > > > considered a stand-alone code section or does one still have to meet > > all of > > > the room design criteria. > > > > > > The question is relevant to a situation where a small ordinary hazard > > space > > > is app. 600 sq.ft. adjacent to a light hazard space and they are using > > > 11.1.2. > > > > > > It seems that section 11.1.2. essentially makes the room design > > irrelevant. > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Rich Richardson > > > Seattle Fire Department > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > > [email protected] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > > [email protected] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > > [email protected] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > > [email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > > [email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > > [email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
