I think the way Cecil described the kitchen/seating area is the best example. What 11.1.2 is saying is, either you have a separation barrier between the two different hazards or you don't. If you do not have a barrier then follow 11.1.2 (1) and extend the OH area out 15' where there is no barrier. If you do have a barrier then follow 11.1.2 (2). Once either (1) or (2) has been determined then as a designer we decide which calculation method is best. Room design, area/density, EC heads or whatever else -13 allows us to use.
11.1.2 is the direction of what to calc, not how to calc it. Thanks, Eric Tysinger CET NICET III - 108988 Designer Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. 4370 Motorsport Drive Concord, NC 28027 p: (704)782-3032 x1751 f: (704)795-6838 C: (239)633-9703 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richardson, R Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 4:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards Thanks for the thoughts. However, the way section 11.1.12 is written, there is no pointer to the room design requirements as being applicable as well. In effect you seem to be saying that section 11.1.2 is not allowed unless each side of the wall is large enough to facilitate a full operating area (with allowable reductions of course) per NFPA13. I am having trouble reaching that conclusion based on the language in the standard. Intent versus what was actually written I suppose, but usually in my world the actual language overrides the intent, except in the case of imminent life safety hazard, likely not the case here. Rich -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 13:33 To: FORUM Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards Rich, I do not think 11.1.2 holds much value when using the room design method. I think 11.1.2 has incredible value when I am required to have "normal" remote area size. I can space LH sprinklers to take advantage of the additional pressures that the OH sprinklers will need. Or vice versa. 11.1.2 allows me to flow water based on the density for each hazard when I either separate them or extend the higher hazard 15ft into the lesser hazard. This can be a tremendously useful strategy for certain applications, such as open cafeteria/kitchens. This would result in OH spacing and densities in the Kitchen area but LH in the dining area. That's a big help on some systems. It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA 13 Committee on Installation Criteria, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the NFSA nor the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. Cecil Bilbo Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology (home of the "technical advantage") Champaign, IL 217-363-2460 www.sprinkleracademy.com > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:25:05 -0700 > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > So in effect section 11.1.2 really has no value in your opinion, if > the rules of the rood design method have to be met as well. Hmm > > Thanks, > > Rich > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 13:20 > To: FORUM > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > Rich, > > > > For what it is worth, if we understand your original question and > situation correctly, I think Ed has it right. (I feel a bit murky on > the room details.) > > > > 11.1.2 relates to adjacent hazards and how to deal with them. If OH and LH > are next to each other, one must calc the sprinklers as OH at least 15 ft > into the LH area. Then the rest of the sprinklers can be calced as light > hazard. > > > > 11.1.2 allows you to calc the sprinklers as OH and LH for their respective > areas if there is a "barrier or partition capable of delaying heat from a > fire in one area from fusing sprinklers in the adjacent area". > > > > Now, if this is one big room (with or without the barrier between hazards), > you may use the room design method. It may not make sense to use it, but you > could. You just have to meet the requirements of the higher hazard for the > wall ratings. For Ordinary Hazard there is no option for picking up two > additonal sprinklers in adjacent rooms. > > > > One cannot ignore the word ROOM either. If the OH and LH areas are adjacent > and not seperated by walls (see the definition of compartment), then it is > one room for the purposes of the room design method. And inmy opinion, the > walls defining the room must meet the rating for OH. > > > > That's my best stab at being clear about a situation I am a little murky on!! > > > > It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA > 13 Committee on Installation Criteria, and has not been processed as a formal > interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee > Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the > official position of the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. > > Sincerely, > > > Cecil Bilbo > Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology > Champaign, IL > 217-363-2460 > www.sprinkleracademy.com > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:55:14 -0600 > > > > Rich, I think there is confusion as to what 11.1.2 is calling for. I > > see that section as telling us when to extend the more-demanding > > sprinkler protection (spacing, density, etc) into adjacent areas > > that would otherwise have less-demanding sprinkler protection - but > > not what sprinks to include in our design area (be it room design > > method or otherwise). Subtle but major difference. > > > > Example 1: 600 sf OH room surrounded by light hazard. The walls are > > not rated and are built (in some odd way) so they don't prevent heat > > from a fire in the OH room from activating sprinks beyond the OH > > room. Per 11.2.3.3.3, room design method can't be used. So you end > > up calcing 1500 sf (+_). The sprinkler protection (spacing, density, etc) > > within the OH room AND 15' > > BEYOND is .20 gpm/sf. The sprinkler protection (spacing, density, > > etc) in the remainder of the 1500 is .10 gpm/sf. > > > > Example 2: 600 sf OH room surrounded by light hazard. The walls are > > not rated but are built so they don't allow heat from a fire in the > > OH room from activating sprinks beyond the OH room. Per 11.2.3.3.3, > > room design method can't be used. So you end up calcing 1500 sf > > (+_). The sprinkler protection (spacing, density, etc) within the OH > > room is .20 gpm/sf. The sprinkler protection (spacing, density, etc) > > in the remainder of the 1500 is .10 gpm/sf. > > > > Again, I don't think it's about what sprinks to calc, it about what > > spacing/density etc are applicable. Other sections tell us what > > sprinks to calc. > > > > On the other hand, I've yet to be told today that I'm wrong, so > > maybe I'm due. > > > > Ed Kramer > > Littleton, CO > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:sprinklerforum- [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > Richardson, R > > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:02 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > > > Unless you invoke section 11.1.2, in which case none of those > > > features are required. > > > > > > Rich Richardson > > > Seattle Fire Department > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:sprinklerforum- [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > Eric Tysinger > > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 12:00 > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > > > I would say you are correct. Additional heads flowing outside the > > > "design room" are only applicable in light hazard where the doors > > > are not automatic or self-closing (no rating required). In > > > ordinary hazard rooms, there is no option, the doors must be rated > > > and automatic or self-closing. In either hazard the walls must be > > > rated to the duration of the water supply required. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Eric Tysinger CET > > > NICET III - 108988 > > > Designer > > > Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. > > > 4370 Motorsport Drive > > > Concord, NC 28027 > > > p: (704)782-3032 x1751 > > > f: (704)795-6838 > > > C: (239)633-9703 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:sprinklerforum- [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > ParsleyConsulting > > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 2:18 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > > > Rich, > > > > > > Isn't that requirement in the room design method for additional > > > head(s) flowing outside the room design area only applicable to Light > > > Hazard? > > > > > > I'm probably not understanding the issue, but that seems relevant > > > to me from what I read in the room design paragraphs of -13. > > > > > > -- > > > PARSLEY CONSULTING > > > Ken Wagoner, SET > > > 760.745.6181 voice > > > 760.745.0537 fax > > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com > > > <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richardson, R wrote: > > > > It does meet 11.1.2 (subject to a massive interpretation as to > > > > what > > > constitutes adequate separation), but does not meet room design > > > because the wall is not fire rated, the doors in the wall are not > > > self-closing and they are not including two heads outside the OH > > > area as required by room design. > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:sprinklerforum- > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon > > > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 10:42 > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: RE: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > > > > > Rich: > > > > > > > > How does your 600 Sf OH space not meet the requirements of 11.1.2(2)? > > > And > > > > still qualify for room design? > > > > > > > > Thom McMahon, SET > > > > Firetech, Inc. > > > > 2560 Copper Ridge Dr > > > > P.O. Box 882136 > > > > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 > > > > Tel: 970-879-7952 > > > > Fax: 970-879-7926 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > Richardson, R > > > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 11:33 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Room Design vs. Adjacent Hazards > > > > > > > > In reference to 2007 NFPA 13 section 11.1.2 Adjacent Hazards, is > > > > this considered a stand-alone code section or does one still > > > > have to meet > > > all of > > > > the room design criteria. > > > > > > > > The question is relevant to a situation where a small ordinary > > > > hazard > > > space > > > > is app. 600 sq.ft. adjacent to a light hazard space and they are > > > > using 11.1.2. > > > > > > > > It seems that section 11.1.2. essentially makes the room design > > > irrelevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Rich Richardson > > > > Seattle Fire Department > > 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