So there is a use for differential equations. WOW. Guess I need to pay up.
Reed A. Roisum, CET Ulteig Engineer, Inc. Engineering Technician Direct: (701)280-8580 Cell: (701)212-8810 -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Law, Kevin W Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 2:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Gravity Tanks Of course depending how high the tank is mounted in relation to the level of discharge the available head will vary which will affect the rate of discharge.......seems to me from my college days(now becoming only a distant memory) that this would be an excellent example for the use of differential equations to solve for the actual performance of the system over time. ............Sounds like a good thing to have an intern figure up for ya' Kevin Law, PE Bechtel National, Inc. Waste Treatment Project Fire Protection Engineering Work (509) 371-3280 Cell (509) 531-5715 -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 10:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Gravity Tanks Art, The reason to assume it is empty is because it might be at the end of your required duration without replenishment. Of course if when it's full the capacity is twice the duration then you can figure it at half empty. If there is replenishment at you know the rate you can add that to the mix and perhaps at the end of duration it would only be 2/5ths empty. Each tank has to be calculated to friction loss and elevation as you say but if you don't have all the pertinent values, most of which were not stated in the original post (duration, capacity, replenishment rate) then you have to assume you start with an empty tank for calculation purposes. On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote: > Is this tank dedicated for fire protection? Why would you assume it is > empty? Then the water is only available for 1 minute while you empty > the riser pipe. Calculate friction loss through riser pipe down and > through sprinkler riser with an assumed flow entering the tank discharge pipe. > Eleveation and friction loss is what you are calculating. > > What about doing a flow test from the base of the riser? > > Arthur Tiroly > ATCO Fire Protection Design > Tiroly and Associates > 216-621-8899 > 216-570-7030 Cell > WWW.ATCOfirepro.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd > Williams > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:17 AM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Gravity Tanks > > I appreciate everybody's input. What about this? > Calculate the flow rate discharging at the bottom of the tank at the > pressure due to the elevation of the water in the tank. I found a > website that apparently will do that, > http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluids/draining_tank.cfm#calc. > The static and residual pressures will be close to the same but will > decrease over time with the drop in water elevation. You could even > make the assumption on a residual pressure based on elevation after 1 > minute of discharge and it would be conservative. So now you have a > static, residual and flow at the tank discharge. Then you could run it > through the piping down through the building (in this case) as you would any > water supply. > > > > > > At 10:18 PM 6/15/2010, you wrote: >>I think Ralphy has it right. The empty tank level is the worst case >>pressure condition and in the big picture the falling tank head is >>nothing compared to 28 floors of head unless the tank height is a few >>sizes bigger than King Kong. A surprising calculation to make might be >>the tank stored gallons divided by the system gpm. >> >>On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Ralphy Henderson wrote: >> >> > Couldn't you also do this: >> > >> > For assumption sake let's say 1st floor is light hazard and we're >> > anticipating we're going to need 400 gpm. Plot out the static >> > pressure of the tank (at the empty level) over zero gpm then >> > calculate our friction losses through the main from the water tank >> > down to the first floor based upon our anticipated 400 gpm and >> > subtract that from our static to get our residual pressure. Plot >> > out the residual pressure over 400 gpm and we now have a standard >> > water supply curve that can be used to determine other pressures at >> > available flows. >> > >> > --- On Tue, 6/15/10, Brad <bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com> wrote: >> > >> > From: Brad <bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com> >> > Subject: RE: Gravity Tanks >> > To: "'Matt Grise'" <m...@afpsprink.com>, >> > sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> > Date: Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 5:44 PM >> > >> > For turbulent (sprinkler) flows, friction loss is proportional to >> > the square of the velocity >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Matt Grise [mailto:m...@afpsprink.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:41 PM >> > To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org'; 'bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com' >> > Subject: RE: Gravity Tanks >> > >> > Don't forget friction in the pipes! >> > >> > Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP >> > Sales Engineer >> > Alliance Fire Protection >> > *Licensed in KS & MO >> > >> > 913.888.0647 ph >> > 913.888.0618 f >> > 913.927.0222 cell >> > www. AFPsprink.com >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org >> > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad >> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:39 PM >> > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com >> > Subject: RE: Gravity Tanks >> > >> > i.e., if the water level is 280 feet 'above your head', then h=280 >> > ft, v=134 ft/sec (same as the Law of Falling Bodies- if you were >> > dropped from 280 ft, you would be going 134 ft/sec when you hit the >> > ground). >> > ft/sec*ft^2=ft^3/sec. If the flow is coming out of 4" pipe, ft^2=. >> > 09---- >> > *134= 12 * 7.48= 90---- * 60= 5400 GPM. As the level 'above your head' >> > drops, so does the velocity, so either use calculus, or call h the >> > bottom of the tank, like I would have to do. It still seems like >> > magic to me that by just using feet and seconds, given the rated >> > psi and rpm ONLY, of a fire pump, I can calculate the diameter of >> > the impeller (v=2*pi*r*f). It seems like magic bcoz for 15 years I >> > tried to learn sprinkler calcs after the PEs had simplified it >> > enough for me by factoring gravity out of the formulas. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Brad [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 8:30 AM >> > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> > Subject: RE: Gravity Tanks >> > >> > mgh=.5mv^2 >> > m is the same on both sides so >> > v= sq root 2gh >> > h= v^2/2g >> > first thing is forget about gallons, minutes, and psi- use feet and >> > seconds: >> > ft, ft^2, ft^3, sec, sec^2. ft/sec=(ft^3/sec)/ft^2) >> > g=32.2 ft/sec^2 (if this project is on the earth). 7.48 gal/ft^3. >> > water >> > weighs 62.4 lbs/ft^3. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Todd Williams [mailto:t...@fpdc.com] >> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 5:11 AM >> > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> > Subject: Gravity Tanks >> > >> > Was there a thread on calculating flow from a gravity tanks a while >> > back? I couldn't find it. I have to do a calculation on the first >> > floor of a building fed from a gravity tank on the 28th floor >> > >> > Todd G. Williams, PE >> > Fire Protection Design/Consulting >> > Stonington, CT >> > 860.535.2080 >> > www.fpdc.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >> > supp...@firesprinkler.org >> > >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >> > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >> > supp...@firesprinkler.org >> > >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >> > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >> > supp...@firesprinkler.org >> > >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >> > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >> > supp...@firesprinkler.org >> > >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >> > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >> > supp...@firesprinkler.org >> > >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >> > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860.535.2080 > www.fpdc.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
