The birth of the horizontal firewall. The architect's are rejoicing here on Earth and in that private Hell reserved for them.
On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Roland Huggins <[email protected]> wrote: > I have preached that sermon many times and then the IBC changes the > HORIZONTAL separation in the 2009 ed. from just parking garages on the > lower levels to multiple types of occupancies. Look for the soon > released July issue of Sprinkler Age and the article by Phill Brown. > > Roland > > On Jul 7, 2010, at 10:46 AM, John Drucker wrote: > >> Brad, >> >> At issue is the notion of horizontal fire separation assembly being >> the >> same as a firewalls. >> >> There are two building separation concepts; 1) open space which allows >> adjacent buildings to burn down without effecting another or 2) a fire >> wall which allows adjacent buildings to burn down without effecting >> another. In both cases the fire building is consumed without affecting >> adjacent buildings. >> >> Obviously distance speaks for itself. >> >> The concept of a firewall delineating separate buildings is founded >> on a >> critical performance criteria ; "2006 IBC 702.1 FIRE WALL. A >> fire-resistance-rated wall having protected openings, which restricts >> the spread of fire and extends continuously from the foundation to or >> through the roof, WITH SUFFICIENT STRUCTURAL STABILITY UNDER FIRE >> CONDITIONS TO ALLOW COLLAPSE OF CONSTRUCTION ON EITHER SIDE without >> collapse of the wall." >> >> So I ask, how does a horizontal fire assembly comply with this >> critical >> performance requirement ?. The answer it doesn't. >> >> But to answer your question; "if a 2-hour wall between light hazard >> and >> something less than light hazard is called equivalent to a separate >> building by the officials, then what do you rename it to?" No need to >> rename it since a 2 hour fall WALL qualifies the construction as two >> separate buildings, so 13 in the non residential BUILDING and 13R is >> the >> residential BUILDING. >> >> John Drucker Jr CET >> Fire Protection Subcode Official >> Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector >> Borough of Red Bank, NJ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad >> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 1:17 PM >> To: 'John Drucker'; [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R >> >> John, >> Good idea with the name change, but it would not satisfy those whom >> want >> to see nothing but sky surrounding nothing but residential-- >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Drucker [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:00 PM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R >> >> David, >> >> Exactly. Where all this "hybrid" stuff came from is beyond me. If you >> have a building that qualifies as NFPA-13R then the system is a 13R >> System. >> NFPA-13R merely refers back to certain sections of 13 as a technical >> reference not to imply that the system is somehow two systems, or a >> 13R/13 system. >> >> Hypothetically if 13R was a standalone standard, i.e. copying and >> pasteing the needed sections of 13, there wouldn't be any confusion >> since users would never venture beyond 13R. But we all know that it >> would increase the cost of the standard. >> >> One simple change would solve the mixed use conundrum; >> >> NFPA 13R: "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in >> RESIDENTIAL Occupancies up to and Including Four Stories in Height". >> >> To >> >> NFPA 13R: "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in >> RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS up to and Including Four Stories in Height". >> >> John Drucker, CET >> Fire Protection Subcode Official >> Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector >> Fire Marshals Office >> Borough of Red Bank, NJ >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, >> David >> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 10:23 AM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R >> >> I believe you can ONLY have a 13 building or a 13R building. You can't >> mix >> and match. One or the other. >> >> >> David Autry >> Plans Examiner >> Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office >> 246 S. 14th Street >> Lincoln, NE 68508 >> 402-471-9659 >> 402-471-3118 fax >> www.sfm.ne.gov >> >> ** Note new email address: [email protected] >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad >> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:20 AM >> To: 'Art Tiroly'; [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R >> >> Residential heads and their calc rules are great where you can use >> them. >> You >> would not be able to use them in say the physical therapy room, >> whether >> it >> was 13 OR 13R. By true occupancy separation, you eliminate a lot of >> bathroom >> and closet heads, AND attic sprinklers. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Art Tiroly [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:02 AM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R >> >> The Ohio IBC has allowed and encourages the use of residential >> sprinklers in >> "I" occupancies. We have used the residential rules in 13 with 4 head >> calc >> areas for many years. But attics etc are required for 100% sprinkler >> coverage due to NFPA 13 requirements per IBC for the I occupancy. >> >> ART >> ATCO Fire Protection >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad >> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:50 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R >> >> If this question is raised before the Arch finalizes the design, then >> the >> common "I" areas (core) can be separated from the "R" (sleeping wings) >> with >> a 2-hour wall, then 13 AND 13R apply, the overall cost is probably >> reduced, >> and there is nothing wrong from a fire protection view. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Daniel Adams [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:47 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R >> >> For a single-story *assisted living* center, can 13R be used for the >> system >> design ? If it can be designed per NFPA 13R, at what point would it >> need >> to >> be protected per NFPA 13 ? I realize that 13R covers residential units >> up to >> 4 levels, but where this is an assisted living center, does this >> make a >> difference ? >> >> Dan Adams >> Designer >> >> Interwest Fire Protection, Inc. >> 404 Ironwood Drive >> Salt Lake City, UT 84115 >> >> Phone: (801) 746-4040 >> Fax: (801) 746-4043 >> [email protected] >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> >> CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: >> This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or >> entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is >> privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, >> intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the >> individual or entity named above and no warranties or >> representations are made or intended to persons or entities not >> named above. 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Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
