Right. I was addressing your comment about water supplies. Either way, whether you interpreted it as two "connected" buildings or two "separate" buildings, it seems to me that a single fire service can feed as many risers as you need, whether it comes from a pump or other source.
Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 3:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R 2007 NFPA-13-8.2.4 Multiple buildings attached by canopies, covered breezeways, common roofs, or a common wall(s) shall be permitted to be supplied by a single fire sprinkler riser. The maximum system size shall comply with 8.2.1. John Drucker, CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Fire Marshals Office Borough of Red Bank, NJ -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 5:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R The standard essentially says that each building shall have its own riser, notwithstanding the exceptions for running piping between separate buildings with attached construction, such as covered walkways. So if you had "two buildings" in the same structure, you would need two risers, but you could meet the prescriptive requirements with a single fire service entry. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 11:52 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R It will be interesting to see the water supply arrangements for these "multiple buildings" including but not limited to the location of a fire pump outside the building it serves in accordance with new section 2009 IBC 913.2.1. If they're separate buildings then they have to be treated accordingly. Hence why I pointed out the specific limitations of 2009 IBC 509.2 John Drucker Jr CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Borough of Red Bank, NJ -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 1:09 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R the point to be made is that the system type applies to the entire building and a single structure can be multiple buildings. This is not a mixed use building but two buildings. The BUILDING below the horizontal separation is required to be protected per NFPA 13 as well as being limited to Type 1A construction and only one level above grade (can be many stories below grade). It is the building above that will be in its entirety a 13R system. It can be any type of construction but the height is still measured to grade. Roland On Jul 8, 2010, at 6:27 PM, John Drucker wrote: > Hmm really............... > > 2009 IBC 509.2 Horizontal building separation allowance. "A building > shall be considered as separate and distinct buildings FOR THE PURPOSE > OF DETERMINING AREA LIMITATIONS, CONTINUITY OF FIRE WALLS, LIMITATION > OF NUMBER OF STORIES AND TYPE OF CONSTRUCTION where all of the > following conditions are met." > > So IBC 509.2 applies to the following criteria; > > 1. DETERMINING AREA LIMITATIONS > 2. CONTINUITY OF FIRE WALLS > 3. LIMITATION OF NUMBER OF STORIES > 4. TYPE OF CONSTRUCTION > > No mention of fire sprinkler determinations in that section including > but not limited to the type of system or the grade height measurement > for the purposes of 13R application which begins at lowest FD vehicle > access not the pedestal. With that said in many cases the building > will exceed four stories in height negating the use of 13R. > > Also Mixed Use Exception 1 at 508.1 merely recognizes the fire > separation provisions of 509 as an alternate to 508.2, 508.3, or > 508.4., it's still a mixed use building. Continuing with 509.2 and the > separation allowance criteria; > > 2009 509.2 Horizontal building separation allowance > > 6. The building BELOW THE HORIZONTAL ASSEMBLY SHALL BE PROTECTED > THROUGHOUT BY AN APPROVED AUTOMATIC SPRINKLER SYSTEM IN ACCORDANCE > WITH SECTION 903.3.1.1, (NFPA-13 not 13R !) and shall be permitted to > be any of the following occupancies: > > 6.1. Group S-2 parking garage used for the parking and storage of > private motor vehicles; 6.2. Multiple Group A, each with an occupant > load of less than 300; 6.3. Group B; 6.4. Group M; 6.5. Group R; and > 6.6. Uses incidental to the operation of the building (including entry > lobbies, mechanical rooms, storage areas and similar uses). > > Frankly we just gained NFPA-13 sprinkler systems in any use below the > separation regardless of the use group ! The sprinkler requirement is > absolute, 6.1 thru 6.6 merely stipulate what uses are permitted below > the fire separation. It will be important for designers to check if a > 509 allowance is being proposed by the architect since sprinklers must > be provided regardless of what section 903.2 stipulates. > > Some are playing a deadly game with the lives of firefighters by > utilizing the increased height allowances and then facilitating the > use of a sprinkler standard beyond its height criteria, a standard > which aqlso allows the interstitial spaces of trusses to go > unprotected. > > > John Drucker, CET > Fire Protection Subcode Official > Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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