The current code does not necessarily have to be legally enforceable. Some building codes adopt the current codes while others specify a particular year. When a particular edition is adopted, then that is the governing code. Although a current code is more cutting edge, you could be faulted for deviating from the governing code. Then again, you could also be faulted for not keeping up with new tecnology. It is a case of damned if you did, and damned if you don't. But between the two, I'd feel safer complying with the governing code, and only complying with a current code, if it is more stringent. Current codes generally reflect newer technology, studies and research. But they are not necessarily always more stringent. For example, remember the last time the density/area curves were revised? Parking garages moved down from 0.16 to 0.15. Also, some obstruction rules have been relaxed, over the years. In general, I'd say you will have a better chance of defending yourself by complying with the governing code than the most current code. Having said that, you also have to keep in mind that codes are minimum standards, and there is nothing wrong (except for the owner's purse) with exceeding the minimum standards.
Tony -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: November 3, 2010 10:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Older editions Curious question, has there ever been a loss because of the use of an older standard assuming it complied with any ed.? So even with EQ were there systems that had fires after earthquakes where the hangers failed and there was a significant loss? Or were the failures just hanger issues but no fires? And even then in EQ country is there anything requiring retrofit if say it was built in '96? If there was some history of failure would we expect the newer standards to address in Ch. 1 retroactivity? There are plenty of losses due to closed/inadequate water. Don't see that a year issue. There are a few noted as system not designed for the hazard. But many of these the original system was complaint but the hazard changed to the system never upgraded. Or it was never right for the original hazard. Again I don't see this as a year issue. Chris Cahill -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Blackwell Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 10:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Has anyone on the list gotten feedback from their insurance carrier regarding using an old code [like the 1996 edition mentioned in the email below]? I'm guessing they wouldn't like you designing to such an old code minimum which had inadequate minimum standards that were later fixed in newer editions of the code. One glaring difference between 2010 & 1996 is in the area of seismic protection which was upgraded after a couple of quakes in CA demonstrated the code minimum requirements in that arena were insufficient. If I were out in private practice I would be trying to design to the current latest published editions so I didn't end up in court with a lawyer asking me why I didn't use a more current edition... David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFI-I, CFPE Engineering ---------------------------------------------------------------- Office of State Fire Marshal 141 Monticello Trail Columbia, SC 29203 Phone: 803.896.9833 Fax: 803.896.9806 Email: [email protected] OSFM Website: http://www.llr.state.sc.us/firemarshal.asp ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Sorry but when doing in-depth code analysis', there is no way you could find every bit of information needed in a tabbed book versus doing a digital search unless you have all the time in the world. There is stuff buried in these texts that is not in the index and unless you've stumbled across it before and tagged it, you'd never find it. Digital is here, now, not waiting for the next generation. As far as the question concerning why NICET uses particular versions, it is probably due to the amount of work involved with reworking a test. Plus not all jurisdictions jump on the new Standard immediately upon its publication. I still have many jurisdictions using the 2002 NFPA 13 and had one earlier in the year that was still on the 1996 version. It would be a significant task to develop a new test each time a new standard came out. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Physical Science :) We old timers are used to paper, but the next generation will probably be much more geared to digital. Somehow NICET and others will need to adapt. Agencies are not going to continue print issues just for some open book testing agency. I agree that finding information in a tabbed text is still a lot quicker than a computer search. But perhaps testing agencies will have to provide computer access to certain reference materials as a part of the computer testing procedure. Brian, as far as your question, I have wondered that as well. Perhaps they use a random number generator At 09:21 AM 11/3/2010, you wrote: >Here's a question for some of you veterans, how does NICET come up with what >year code will be on the test? I don't get why some of these codes are 2,3, >and greater revisions behind the current one.... > >Brian Harris >FDFP Inc. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church >Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:22 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Physical Science :) > >Its not as easy as it sounds to change a 30-year old certification program >as you might think. >While it's a PIA to drag around all the reference materials, you must also >appreciate the numerous concerns and integrity requirements and restrictions >faced by any testing agency. They need to prevent theft of test questions, >they need to make sure you are using a hand calculator rather than allowing >the possibility you'll run a calc program on a PC or programmable >calculator, that you know where to look things up based on familiarity with >the references rather than rely on a word search, etc. > >NICET is moving along with PC-based testing at readily accessible testing >centers nationwide, with open scheduling and instant results. It's a large >undertaking with substantial volunteer contribution to make it work. To >speed it along, participate and donate your time and energy to the industry >that puts food on your table. > >NICET is also facing some competition in the market which may or may not >produce other streamlining of the process, but it is what it is and the >integrity of the process demands checking and validating the changes, and >that all takes time. Think of the 4 years +/- some of us have been involved >in the process, lugging ourselves to Alexandria, and -not to sound like the >proverbial schoolteacher, but I remember borrowing references from the >Atlanta fire marshal so I had to spend Fri afternoon going downtown, lugging >the books to the car, getting familiar with them Fri night, and lugging them >to the exam and on Monday AM back to City Hall. It builds character and >memories, like then-mayor Andrew Young getting in the elevator with me Fri >and observing what a fun weekend I must be stocking up for :) > >glc > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >[email protected] >Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:56 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Physical Science :) > >Really, all of our codes are now in digital format. Much easier to search >and cheaper for the company. NICET needs to come into the 21st century with >this. It's just crazy lugging 30-40 lbs of reference books to a test. Had >one test that was on 2nd floor and had to tote the load up the stairs. Just >plain ridiculous. > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >[email protected] > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams >Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:08 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: Physical Science :) > >And don't forget to put index tabs on your references and take a >dictionary with you. > >What are they going to do when al this stuff is on our iPads? > > >At 06:39 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote: > >Same here, Brian. Of course I'm so old that when I took it with me > >it was only one volume, not two. > >-- > > > >PARSLEY CONSULTING > > > >Ken Wagoner, SET > > > >760.745.6181 voice > > > >760.745.0537 fax > > > >[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>e-mail > > > >www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com>website > > > > > > > > > >On 11/2/2010 2:46 PM, Jamie.seidl wrote: > >>The fire protection handbook. It's all I used. > >> > >>Jamie > >>Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>On Nov 2, 2010, at 5:08 PM, "Brian > >>Harris"<[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>>Any recommendations for good reference material for the Physical Science > >>>portion of the Nicet test? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Brian Harris > >>> > >>>First Defense Fire Protection > >>> > >>>11957 Ramah Church Road > >>> > >>>Huntersville, NC 28078 > >>> > >>>Phone: 704.948.3506 > >>> > >>>Fax: 704.948.3507 > >>> > >>>Nicet # 128476 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>======= > >>>Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > >>>(Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16210) > >>>http://www.pctools.com/ > >>>======= > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>[email protected] > >>>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >>>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>[email protected] > >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >Todd G. Williams, PE >Fire Protection Design/Consulting >Stonington, CT >860.535.2080 >www.fpdc.com > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >======= >Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. >(Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16220) >http://www.pctools.com/ >======= > > > > > >======= >Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. >(Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16220) >http://www.pctools.com/ >======= >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
