So you were, "Blinded--by science?" Ron Greenman ...On the phone
On Nov 4, 2010, at 5:08 AM, "George Church" <[email protected]> wrote: > Between the Marriott points and getting to sit next to Big John it was a > very worthwhile experience. > There was, however, the day JD brought in new Advanced Hydraulics questions > and we had to do math. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 5:24 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Physical Science :) > > That sounds a lot like Nevada. But on the topic of why does NICET use those > ancient standards you need to remember they weren't ancient when the test > was written. The cost of writing and vetting these tests, keeping them > secure, and administrating the program are substantial. > If the test questions for every field NICET tests for (remember sprinklers > are just one field in four fire protection areas and fire protection is one > field in….) were constantly updated every time a new edition hit the street > the cost of testing would soar, eliciting more complaints. And though '96 > will probably remain the edition in use for the remaining guys still > finishing up element testing I suspect the new tests will be based on newer > editions although I'm only guessing. > I was asked to help in the development process and like the cook from > Lonesome Dove when propositioned by the prostitute, I had the necessary > cash, the desire, and the ability, but I unfortunately did not have the > time. I'd have loved a roll in the hay with the new tests. > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 9:16 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> When the State or jurisdiction in question has not adopted the latest > version of the building and fire codes and the AHJ directs you to use the > Standards referenced in their adopted code and you have written confirmation > to that effect, you design to what their State law says is valid at that > time. You document your reservations and concerns and proceed. >> >> There are cases where an AHJ will allow you to design to a newer standard > but you have to use the whole standard and not pick and choose parts of it, > submitting it as an alternative method. This is not uncommon in some very > rural areas and especially in some States where the decision of what Codes > to use falls upon local governments since there is no State law mandating a > single code set or edition. >> >> I had a project early in the year where there was no State adopted code, > they deferred to the local jurisdiction, when contacting the local AHJ, they > basically said we could use whatever we chose to, the only inspections they > do were on septic tanks. I asked who inspected fire sprinkler and life > safety systems and was told they didn't inspect those systems. In another > area the AHJ stated that we were the engineers and he trusted our design to > be right so he didn't review shop drawings or do inspections, we were to > inspect our own work. >> >> Working around the country it is sometimes quite surprising what you run > up against when dealing with local authorities. Consistency is something > that is seriously lacking especially in our field. >> >> Septic tanks are more important than life safety systems obviously. >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David >> Blackwell >> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:58 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Physical Science :) >> >> Has anyone on the list gotten feedback from their insurance carrier > regarding using an old code [like the 1996 edition mentioned in the email > below]? >> >> I'm guessing they wouldn't like you designing to such an old code minimum > which had inadequate minimum standards that were later fixed in newer > editions of the code. One glaring difference between 2010 & 1996 is in the > area of seismic protection which was upgraded after a couple of quakes in CA > demonstrated the code minimum requirements in that arena were insufficient. > If I were out in private practice I would be trying to design to the > current latest published editions so I didn't end up in court with a lawyer > asking me why I didn't use a more current edition... >> >> >> >> David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFI-I, CFPE Engineering >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Office of State Fire Marshal >> 141 Monticello Trail >> Columbia, SC 29203 >> Phone: 803.896.9833 >> Fax: 803.896.9806 >> Email: [email protected] >> OSFM Website: http://www.llr.state.sc.us/firemarshal.asp >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> [email protected] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:56 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Physical Science :) >> >> Sorry but when doing in-depth code analysis', there is no way you could > find every bit of information needed in a tabbed book versus doing a digital > search unless you have all the time in the world. There is stuff buried in > these texts that is not in the index and unless you've stumbled across it > before and tagged it, you'd never find it. >> >> Digital is here, now, not waiting for the next generation. >> >> As far as the question concerning why NICET uses particular versions, it > is probably due to the amount of work involved with reworking a test. Plus > not all jurisdictions jump on the new Standard immediately upon its > publication. I still have many jurisdictions using the 2002 NFPA 13 and had > one earlier in the year that was still on the 1996 version. It would be a > significant task to develop a new test each time a new standard came out. >> >> Craig L. Prahl, CET >> Fire Protection >> CH2MHILL >> Lockwood Greene >> 1500 International Drive >> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >> Direct - 864.599.4102 >> Fax - 864.599.8439 >> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd >> Williams >> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:50 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Physical Science :) >> >> We old timers are used to paper, but the next generation will probably >> be much more geared to digital. Somehow NICET and others will need to >> adapt. Agencies are not going to continue print issues just for some >> open book testing agency. I agree that finding information in a tabbed >> text is still a lot quicker than a computer search. But perhaps >> testing agencies will have to provide computer access to certain >> reference materials as a part of the computer testing procedure. >> >> Brian, as far as your question, I have wondered that as well. Perhaps >> they use a random number generator >> >> >> At 09:21 AM 11/3/2010, you wrote: >>> Here's a question for some of you veterans, how does NICET come up >>> with what year code will be on the test? I don't get why some of these >>> codes are 2,3, and greater revisions behind the current one.... >>> >>> Brian Harris >>> FDFP Inc. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George >>> Church >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:22 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: Physical Science :) >>> >>> Its not as easy as it sounds to change a 30-year old certification >>> program as you might think. >>> While it's a PIA to drag around all the reference materials, you must >>> also appreciate the numerous concerns and integrity requirements and >>> restrictions faced by any testing agency. They need to prevent theft >>> of test questions, they need to make sure you are using a hand >>> calculator rather than allowing the possibility you'll run a calc >>> program on a PC or programmable calculator, that you know where to >>> look things up based on familiarity with the references rather than rely > on a word search, etc. >>> >>> NICET is moving along with PC-based testing at readily accessible >>> testing centers nationwide, with open scheduling and instant results. >>> It's a large undertaking with substantial volunteer contribution to >>> make it work. To speed it along, participate and donate your time and >>> energy to the industry that puts food on your table. >>> >>> NICET is also facing some competition in the market which may or may >>> not produce other streamlining of the process, but it is what it is >>> and the integrity of the process demands checking and validating the >>> changes, and that all takes time. Think of the 4 years +/- some of us >>> have been involved in the process, lugging ourselves to Alexandria, >>> and -not to sound like the proverbial schoolteacher, but I remember >>> borrowing references from the Atlanta fire marshal so I had to spend >>> Fri afternoon going downtown, lugging the books to the car, getting >>> familiar with them Fri night, and lugging them to the exam and on >>> Monday AM back to City Hall. It builds character and memories, like >>> then-mayor Andrew Young getting in the elevator with me Fri and >>> observing what a fun weekend I must be stocking up for :) >>> >>> glc >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> [email protected] >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:56 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: Physical Science :) >>> >>> Really, all of our codes are now in digital format. Much easier to >>> search and cheaper for the company. NICET needs to come into the 21st >>> century with this. It's just crazy lugging 30-40 lbs of reference >>> books to a test. Had one test that was on 2nd floor and had to tote >>> the load up the stairs. Just plain ridiculous. >>> >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET >>> Fire Protection >>> CH2MHILL >>> Lockwood Greene >>> 1500 International Drive >>> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd >>> Williams >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:08 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: Physical Science :) >>> >>> And don't forget to put index tabs on your references and take a >>> dictionary with you. >>> >>> What are they going to do when al this stuff is on our iPads? >>> >>> >>> At 06:39 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote: >>>> Same here, Brian. Of course I'm so old that when I took it with me >>>> it was only one volume, not two. >>>> -- >>>> >>>> PARSLEY CONSULTING >>>> >>>> Ken Wagoner, SET >>>> >>>> 760.745.6181 voice >>>> >>>> 760.745.0537 fax >>>> >>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>e-mail >>>> >>>> www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com>website >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/2/2010 2:46 PM, Jamie.seidl wrote: >>>>> The fire protection handbook. It's all I used. >>>>> >>>>> Jamie >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 2, 2010, at 5:08 PM, "Brian >>>>> Harris"<[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Any recommendations for good reference material for the Physical >>>>>> Science portion of the Nicet test? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian Harris >>>>>> >>>>>> First Defense Fire Protection >>>>>> >>>>>> 11957 Ramah Church Road >>>>>> >>>>>> Huntersville, NC 28078 >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: 704.948.3506 >>>>>> >>>>>> Fax: 704.948.3507 >>>>>> >>>>>> Nicet # 128476 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ======= >>>>>> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. >>>>>> (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16210) >>>>>> http://www.pctools.com/ ======= >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>>>> >>>>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>>>> to:[email protected] >>>>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>>> >>>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>>> to:[email protected] >>>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> Todd G. Williams, PE >>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >>> Stonington, CT >>> 860.535.2080 >>> www.fpdc.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ======= >>> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. >>> (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16220) >>> http://www.pctools.com/ ======= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ======= >>> Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. >>> (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16220) >>> http://www.pctools.com/ ======= >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> Todd G. Williams, PE >> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >> Stonington, CT >> 860.535.2080 >> www.fpdc.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
