Tut, tut, Ron ! Boswell has two 'll's' !
(Dr Johnson wuld not mind - his spelin wos atroshious) Stewart (MA and MSc) On 31 Jan 2011, at 00:28, Ron Greenman wrote: > John, > > Not at all. I believe I asked for your further input regarding my comments. > To stand corrected is to admit learning in the face of preconceived notions. > The learning is good for us unwashed, the validation let's you know that your > efforts are appreciated, and the suggested lesson for the egotists is pretty > clear, though it may escape them due to their nature. If any apologies are > required it's from the developers of this form of communication wherein there > is no place for even inflection. Were that we were all Voltaire, Twain, or > Faulkner and there'd be no misunderstandings of this kind. But, alas, the art > of letter writing is long dead. Modern Boswels compiling the emails of even > famous scientists could easily title the work "The Collected Grocery Lists of > Dr. X." When it cost a man a week's pay to send a letter because it > absolutely, positively had to get there in a couple of months folks were a > little more erudite. I believe I'm near the last graduating class where > penmanship, spelling, punctuation, and an adherence to grammar were necessary > for the educated man. The term for an educated person used to be knowledge of > Arts, Letters and the Sciences. > > Ron Greenman > ...On the phone > > On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:11 PM, "John Drucker" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Ron, >> >> Didn't mean for it to come across that way, just trying to help out >> >> John >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman >> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:08 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Electrical Rooms-Dedicated Equipment Space, Sprinklers and IBC >> Exemptions >> >> I stand corrected. Although I haven't spent enough time with this to >> know how corrected I've been but there's enough easily assimilable to >> know I've been at least somewhat corrected. Thank you once again. >> >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:49 AM, John Drucker <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> Fear not for the answer you seek is found in the code >>> ...............Emphasis in CAPS >>> >>> 2008 NFPA-70 (NEC) >>> >>> 110.26(F) Dedicated Equipment Space. >>> "All SWITCHBOARDS, PANELBOARDS, DISTRIBUTION BOARDS, AND MOTOR CONTROL >>> CENTERS shall be located in dedicated spaces and protected from damage." >>> >>> Article 100 Definitions >>> >>> Motor Control Center. An assembly of one or more enclosed sections having >> a >>> common power bus and PRINCIPALLY CONTAINING MOTOR CONTROL UNITS. >>> >>> Panelboard. A single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly >> in >>> the form of a single panel, including buses and automatic overcurrent >>> devices, and equipped with or without switches FOR THE CONTROL OF LIGHT, >>> HEAT, OR POWER CIRCUITS; designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box >>> placed in or against a wall, partition, or other support, and ACCESSIBLE >>> ONLY FROM THE FRONT. >>> >>> Switchboard. A large single panel, frame, or assembly of panels on which >> are >>> mounted on the face, back, or both, SWITCHES, OVERCURRENT AND OTHER >>> PROTECTIVE DEVICES, BUSES, and usually instruments. Switchboards are >>> GENERALLY ACCESSIBLE FROM THE REAR AS WELL as from the front and are not >>> intended to be installed in cabinets. >>> >>> No definition for Distribution Boards......let's see if another article >>> provides the answer.......... >>> >>> 408.1 Scope. “This article covers the following: (1) All switchboards, >>> panelboards, and DISTRIBUTION BOARDS INSTALLED FOR THE CONTROL OF LIGHT >> AND >>> POWER CIRCUITS.” >>> >>> 90.3 Code Arrangement. “This Code is divided into the introduction and >> nine >>> chapters, as shown in Figure 90.3. CHAPTERS 1, 2, 3, AND 4 APPLY >> GENERALLY.” >>> >>> And last but not least, an online resource with descriptions, photos, etc >> of >>> panelboards, distribution boards from NEMA >>> >>> http://www.nema.org/prod/be/lvde/panelboard/enclose-pd/ >>> >>> Hope this helps, >>> >>> John Drucker, CET >>> Fire Protection Subcode Official >>> Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector >>> Fire Marshals Office >>> Borough of Red Bank, NJ >>> >>> Not the official position of any agency, association, committee or >>> otherwise. Obtain required applications, permits, inspections and >> approvals >>> from Authority(s) Having Jurisdiction. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron >> Greenman >>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 11:07 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: Electrical Rooms-Dedicated Equipment Space, Sprinklers and >> IBC >>> Exemptions >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> I'll defer to John if he calls me on this, but I don't think those >>> little electrical closets with a single lighting/general purpose >>> sub-panel, a mop sink, and the custodian's collection of porn really >>> count at all, and certainly not for sprinklers. >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:01 AM, Brad Casterline >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> It always does help, John, thanks, far more than 'stay out of the air >>>> space'...). I wanted to add for Brian's sake of the original post- it >>>> sounded like he had the many small electrical closets in mind- I offset >>>> around them and stub in a sidewall on my way by. I consider them OHI, and >>> so >>>> I can use standard response, intermediate temp. For the big elect. rooms, >>>> (and elevator equipment) I go in once and never come out :) >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: John Drucker [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:37 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: FW: Electrical Rooms-Dedicated Equipment Space,Sprinklers and >> IBC >>>> Exemptions >>>> >>>> Members, >>>> >>>> Sprinkler piping is permitted in and through electrical rooms with two >>>> provisions, first the piping cannot be located in the dedicated >> electrical >>>> space, and second watersheds or other protective devices must be provided >>>> for electrical equipment below when piping is located above the dedicated >>>> electrical space. >>>> >>>> The National Electrical Code (NEC) does not prohibit the installation of >>>> fire sprinklers in electrical rooms, the 2006 and 2009 Editions of the >> IBC >>>> reinforce the sprinkler requirements; >>>> >>>> 903.3.1.1.1 Exempt locations. "Automatic sprinklers shall not be required >>> in >>>> the following rooms or areas where such rooms or areas are protected with >>> an >>>> approved automatic fire detection system in accordance with Section 907.2 >>>> that will respond to visible or invisible particles of combustion. >>>> SPRINKLERS SHALL NOT BE OMITTED FROM ANY ROOM MERELY BECAUSE IT is damp, >>> of >>>> fire-resistance-rated construction OR CONTAINS ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT." >>>> >>>> However the 2006 and 2009 IBC provides the following sprinkler exemption >>> for >>>> separated and detected GENERATOR AND TRANSFORMER rooms; >>>> >>>> 903.3.1.1. - 3. "GENERATOR AND TRANSFORMER ROOMS separated from the >>>> remainder of the building by walls and floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling >>>> assemblies having a fire-resistance rating of NOT LESS THAN 2 HOURS." >>>> >>>> Keep in mind where this exemption is utilized a fire alarm system >> pursuant >>>> to 907.2 utilizing smoke detectors located in the generator and or >>>> transformer room(s) must be installed which means the space must be >>> suitable >>>> for smoke detectors in accordance with the products listing and NFPA-72. >>>> >>>> Hope this helps, >>>> >>>> John Drucker, CET >>>> Fire Protection Subcode Official >>>> Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector >>>> >>>> Not the official position of any agency, association, committee or >>>> otherwise. Obtain required applications, permits, inspections and >>> approvals >>>> from Authority(s) Having Jurisdiction. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 7:55 PM >>>> Subject: RE: Electrical Rooms >>>> >>>> 2008 NFPA-70 (NEC) 110.26(F) >>>> >>>> (F) Dedicated Equipment Space. All switchboards, panelboards, >> distribution >>>> boards, and motor control centers shall be located in dedicated spaces >> and >>>> protected from damage. >>>> >>>> (1) Indoor. Indoor installations shall comply with 110.26(F)(1)(a) >> through >>>> (F)(1)(d). >>>> >>>> (a) Dedicated Electrical Space. The space equal to the width and depth of >>>> the equipment and extending from the floor to a height of 1.8 m (6 ft) >>> above >>>> the equipment or to the structural ceiling, whichever is lower, shall be >>>> dedicated to the electrical installation. No piping, ducts, leak >>> protection >>>> apparatus, or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation >> shall >>>> be located in this zone. >>>> >>>> Exception: Suspended ceilings with removable panels shall be permitted >>>> within the 1.8-m (6-ft) zone. >>>> >>>> (b) Foreign Systems. The AREA ABOVE THE DEDICATED SPACE required by >>>> 110.26(F)(1)(a) SHALL BE PERMITTED TO CONTAIN FOREIGN SYSTEMS, provided >>>> PROTECTION IS INSTALLED to >>>> avoid damage to the electrical equipment from condensation, LEAKS, OR >>> BREAKS >>>> IN SUCH FOREIGN SYSTEMS. >>>> >>>> (c) Sprinkler Protection. Sprinkler PROTECTION shall be permitted for the >>>> dedicated space where the piping complies with this section. >>>> >>>> (d) Suspended Ceilings. A dropped, suspended, or similar ceiling that >> does >>>> not add strength to the building structure shall not be considered a >>>> structural ceiling. >>>> >>>> >>>> In other words the dedicated equipment space is a three dimensional >>>> exclusion zone above and around switchboards, panelboards, distribution >>>> boards, and motor control centers which is reserved for electrical wiring >>>> only. The space begins at the floor, the width and depth of the equipment >>>> and to a height of 6ft above the equipment or to the STRUCTURAL ceiling >>>> whichever is LOWER. So keep out unless you're the electrician. >>>> >>>> Take heed of (C), the operative term is PROTECTION not PIPING. So you can >>>> spray water in the dedicated space, just don't run the pipe in there. >>>> >>>> Hope this helps, >>>> >>>> John Drucker, CET >>>> Fire Protection Subcode Official >>>> Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector >>>> >>>> Not the official position of any agency, association, committee or >>>> otherwise. Obtain required applications, permits, inspections and >>> approvals >>>> from Authority(s) Having Jurisdiction. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ron Greenman >>> Instructor >>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>> Bates Technical College >>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>> >>> 253.680.7346 >>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>> >>> Member: >>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >>> >>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >>> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >> Bates Technical College >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >> Tacoma, WA 98405 >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >> >> 253.680.7346 >> 253.576.9700 (cell) >> >> Member: >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >> >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
