You might try appealing the TN equivalent of the Board of Technical Registration. In AZ we finally got the BTR to publish a "Substantive Policy Statement" that defines just what part of FP design must be done by a registered engineer. The statement concludes by saying that installation drawings and the related hydraulic calculations may be performed by a licensed contractor. Basically the EOR must verify the hazard, adequacy of the water supply and reference the applicable standards to be used for the system layout.
Every AHJ in the state seemed to have a different idea of what was required. The engineering community for the most part thought everything should be stamped. I suggested that if a stamp was required there should also be a note on every plan saying that the installation must match the drawing and any changes made must be approved by the engineer. Trying to eliminate the notes transferring responsibility for code compliance of the system to the installing contractor. But that got shot down. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 8:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal I've found this in some of our old specs and have tried to clean it up whenever I can. However since the specifications are corporate wide and I don't see every project there are still some that I'm sure have verbiage to this affect. Not trying to start a bashing match on PE's here but most of the misconception is upon the ME's who think everything must be stamped, shop drawings included. I've even seen reference to NICET III Automatic Sprinklers being responsible for design of underground fire mains, (which is way off since water lines are designed and laid out by the CE and show on utility drawings in our projects). Overall there is just a huge lack of understanding within the A/E community when it comes to EVERYTHING related to fire protection. What will help is if you as a contractor are familiar with the State laws regarding submittal/shop drawing preparation and submissions and have at the ready, chapter and verse from the applicable state laws related to what is to be stamped and what does not require a PE seal. I've had to dig through many a state requirements to prove that in 9 out of 10 cases no PE seal was required on the sprinkler contractor shop drawings. Finding the info is not always easy. Some state web sites are great, some are worthless. In those cases, pick up the phone and make a call and get the reference. Craig P -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:48 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal To all; This is not a question in reference to NFPA; however a cry for help to the industry. Does anyone else run into this? We prepare shop drawings with calculations for every project, and for some projects seismic design shop drawings with calculations. Here in TN (although this scenario has happened on projects outside of TN as well) we have the standard of care, which means there are to be fire protection intent drawings created by a registered design professional as part of the original construction documents and when we complete our shop drawings/calculations that registered design professional shall review them for acceptance and stamp them. What we run into at random is what we believe is a misinterpretation of the code (IBC for instance) and it gets put into the specifications for the project; It is interpreted as our shop drawings have to be stamped AND SEALED by an engineer and this is getting applied to the seismic design specifications now as well. The fire protection contractors that do not catch this or overlook it, as we did years ago, end up having to hire (at their expense) a registered engineer so they can provide sealed drawings/calculations, even though there is one already on record for the project. Then you run into the problem of the need for the engineer to create the drawings and calculations themselves due to the fact they cannot seal anything they did not create. Now more time, coordination and costs are incurred by the fire protection contractor. We have added an exclusion in our base bid letter for the cost of providing an engineers seal on our shop drawings and calculations for a couple of years now and just revised it to exclude that same cost on seismic design and calculations, as we are seeing this requirement in specifications more frequently. It is our interpretation that each project shall have a registered design professional to set the standard for the project and that professional shall review our shop drawings and calculations for acceptance with a stamp; not a true need for a SEALED set. Every time we ask the question to the design professionals for the project they can't tell us where it came from other than this is what is required per code and will not listen to our argument/explanation. Somehow, if our interpretation is correct, we need to get this amended to be clear to all. Thank you, Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell <mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com> bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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