NFPA makes no such distinction. It's a reactive standard that says, IF you have to sprinkler a "stage" then this is the criteria. IF you have a proscenium, here is the criteria. You are repeating the same platitude - what in the IBC makes it a stage if the only curtain is the one that draws closed between the platform and the seating area.
Back to Phelps' point: If I have a conference room of 3,000 sq. ft. with a soffit down the middle for a demountable partition wall system, so I have to arbitrarily upgrade that room (or half of it) to OH because I can draw a curtain or wall between the two 1,500 sq. ft. subdivided spaces? SML -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of njarendt tds.net Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: RE: Stage/platform It is a difference between the codes. The IBC makes it simple it is a stage it is the NFPA that creates a distinction. You need to know how the specific state wants it addressed and that is ny the codes the individual state adopts and then customizes. On Jul 26, 2012 11:22 AM, "Steve Leyton" <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm really trying to pull something tangible out of this discussion so > please bear with me. You stated, " If you are in an IBC state it is a > stage." Why? A platform allows for performances, a platform allows > for lighting and sound. A platform DOESN'T allow for overhead stuff ... > what I'm reaching for is that line - do you think it's the curtain that > closes in front of the state? If so, are you agreeing with the interp > that it's an "overhead hanging curtain"? Do you not see a distinction > between curtains that are retractable and a curtain that is on a fixed > track? > > > Steve Leyton > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David E. > Herbert > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Stage/platform > > Remember that the IBC has different definitions. If you are in an IBC > state it is a stage. If you are in an NFPA 101 state, it may not be a > stage. And if you are lucky enough to be in a state that uses both IBC > and 101,,,,,,,,, at least in the one I work in now, the most stringent > applies, which in this case appears to be IBC so I guess we are back > to being a stage.... > > It was so much easier working with only one code in my former life in > the State of Drucker. > > Dave Herbert > now in the Sunshine State > > From: Bob <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 11:35 AM > Subject: RE: Stage/platform > > Again, I'm looking at an older version of 101, but it talks > specifically to the Platform by stating, "A.3.149. The raised area > within a building used for the presentation of music, plays, or other > entertainment" and "A.3.3.149. Platforms also include the head tables > for special guest; that raised area for lectures and speakers; .... > and for similar purposes wherein there are no overhead drops, pieces > of scenery, or stage affects other than lighting and a screening > valance. A platform is not intended to be prohibited from using a > curtain as a valance to screen or hide the electric conduit, lighting > track, or similar fixtures, nor is a platform prohibited from using > curtains that are used to obscure the back wall of the stage; a > curtain between the auditorium and the stage (grand or house curtain), > a maximum of four leg drops; or a valance to screen lights, plumbing, and similar equipment from view." > > The OH design criteria appears to kick in when a platform is no longer > a platform and it becomes a legitimate stage. There are specifics > that trigger the protection requirements such as area (1000 sf), > height (50'), and vertically retractable scenery. > > A small platform that has curtains is not a stage and therefore does > not need to be treated and protected as such. > > > Bob Knight, CET III > 208-318-3057 > www.firebyknight.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:27 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Stage/platform > > You kmow, that's really well put. Same idea with a meeting room that > has moving partitions. > > Steve > > "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: > > Do floor to ceiling curtains in an office with 10 ft. ceiling change > the office to OH? > > Ron Fletcher > Aero Automatic > Phoenix, AZ > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John > Drucker > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 3:55 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Stage/platform > > Get rid of the curtain... LH. Done > John Drucker - Mobile Email > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: [email protected] > <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > <[email protected]> > Sent: Wed Jul 25 18:39:08 2012 > Subject: RE: Stage/platform > > Agree with you up to the end. It's a Multi-Purpose building with a > platform that has a low ceiling and a horizontally closing curtain. > Not a performing arts center or other "legitimate" stage type of facility. > So the building is used for PTA meetings, student assemblies and > cafeteria seating; it's a smaller A-group with a raised platform that > faces the main seating area, and I see the whole thing as light hazard. > > > The plans reviewer brought this up at the very end of a backcheck. > The entire design is approved, and this wasn't a correction on the > first plan check. She brought it up right before we were to get signed > off and it's a big deal because the riser is at the other end of the building. > So this will change our piping plan and RCP over the platform, main > size, seismic bracing calc's, detail sheet, etc., etc. That's why > it's a BFD ... > > SML > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John > Drucker > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 3:32 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Stage/platform > > > For example.......... An A-1 Theatre, IIA Construction, 1 story, > 10,000 sf in area, exit discharge at grade, occupant load of 299. > Does the building need sprinklers ? > > 903.2.1.1 Group A-1. > > An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided for Group A-1 > occupancies where ONE of the following conditions exists: > 1. The fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2). > 2. The fire area has an occupant load of 300 or more. > 3. The fire area is located on a floor other than the level of exit > discharge. > 4. The fire area contains a multitheater complex. > > Lets add a Stage........ > > 401.1 Detailed use and occupancy requirements. > > In ADDITION to the occupancy and construction requirements in this > code, the provisions of this chapter apply to the special uses and > occupancies described herein. > > [F] 410.6 Automatic sprinkler system. > Stages shall be equipped with an automatic fire-extinguishing system > in accordance with Chapter 9. Sprinklers shall be installed under the > roof and gridiron and under all catwalks and galleries over the stage. > Sprinklers shall be installed in dressing rooms, performer lounges, > shops and storerooms accessory to such stages. > > Exceptions: > 1. Sprinklers are not required under stage areas less than 4 feet > (1219 > mm) in clear height that are utilized exclusively for storage of > tables and chairs, provided the concealed space is separated from the > adjacent spaces by not less than 5/8-inch (15.9 mm) Type X gypsum board. > 2. Sprinklers are not required for stages 1,000 square feet (93 m2) > or > less in area and 50 feet (15 240 mm) or less in height where curtains, > scenery or other combustible hangings are not retractable vertically. > Combustible hangings shall be limited to a single main curtain, > borders, legs and a single backdrop. > 3. Sprinklers are not required within portable orchestra enclosures > on > stages. > > So 410.6 could require the suppression of a stage in an otherwise > unsprinklered building. Of course I really oversimplified this, > obviously means of egress figures into the equation. > > If your building requires sprinklers based in 903, 410.6 is a mute > point since sprinklers are required throughout and the density based > on the hazard from 13, OH-2. > > John > > > John Drucker, CET > Fire Protection Subcode Official > Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector > Fire Marshals Office > Borough of Red Bank, NJ > > Not the official position of any agency, association, committee or > otherwise. Obtain required applications, permits, inspections and > approvals from Authority(s) Having Jurisdiction. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 6:16 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Stage/platform > > But 410.6 excepts sprinklers where stages are less than 1,000 s.f. in > area and 50' high AND where there is only a "main curtain". This is > the fulcrum of the widget: they're saying that the curtain that closes > in front of the stage is an "overhead hanging curtain". This thing > has a t-bar ceiling at > 9'-0 or 10'-0. > > We're putting in sprinklers either way as it's a fully sprinklered > building but absent a volume of "flag and bag" space above the stage, > OH-2 is a BFD and in my opinion not required on this particular > application. > > > Steve > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John > Drucker > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 3:10 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Stage/platform > > 2006 IBC Commentary...................... > > Platform > > "Platforms are raised areas that are used for public performances and > presentations that EXCEPT FOR LIGHTING DO NOT INCORPORATE ANY OVERHEAD > HANGING CURTAINS, DROPS, SCENERY OR STAGE EFFECTS." > > > OVERHEAD HANGING CURTAINS..... It's a stage. > > Sprinklers.... 410.6 > Standpipes (You're favorite) .... 410.7 > > Hope that helps, > > John Drucker, CET > Fire Protection Subcode Official > Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector > Fire Marshals Office > Borough of Red Bank, NJ > > Not the official position of any agency, association, committee or > otherwise. Obtain required applications, permits, inspections and > approvals from Authority(s) Having Jurisdiction. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 1:59 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Stage/platform > > Friends, Romans, Forumite and Drucker: > > I have a plans reviewer with whom we are dancing about on the subject > of defining a "platform" vs. a "stage". Probably the largest part of > the conversation has to do with "overhead hanging curtains". The > definition of a stage is basically a space within a building used for > entertainment or presentations that includes "overhead hanging > curtains, drops, scenery or stage effects other than lighting and sound." > > My take is that this space in an elementary school MP buildings is a > platform because it only has lighting and sound overhead. Their take > is that it's a stage because it has a curtain that can be drawn across > its front. Anyone have a more specific definition or code citation > for what constitutes an overhead hanging curtain? > > Steve Leyton > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: > This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is > privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, > intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the > individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations > are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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