Dewayne, I had a short off-Forum debate with a friend when the AFSA release came out- citing we MUST address known problems when we're aware of them. I would debate that all day if I had the time. On a parallel of when TIA's apply- CMS uses the 1999 edition on a certain date for nursing homes nationwide- or at least the ones that want Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements. Discussions direct with CMS made it clear that they enforce that date of the 1999 #13 and NOTHING ELSE matters. A case was attempted to be made that more recent editions of #13 are simply a conglomeration of all the TIAs from prior editions...it went nowhere with CMS, and the pitch was made by a nationally respected FPE and former member of the Standards Council.
With that in mind, if I had the right to an opinion, it would be that unless your AHJ has adopted the TIAs they are not LAW. Now any fool of a contractor I would HOPE would not induce any antifreeze above the concentrations NFPA's testing didn't show as safe, since that COULD, again IMHO if I had one, bring in NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS STUPIDITY, or other things that might land a sprinkler contractor in jail or without a business or other assets due to a judge or jury wondering how someone could kill another with a sprinkler system. I no longer have any limits on how stupid I believe some of us contractors can be. Wish I could report a better state of the industry, but I can't. So I wouldn't worry about the lack of UL listing, but don't induce anything that goes BOOM and if I were your attorney, I'd be ok. But I'm a sprinkler contractor, and while I play PE without a license way too often, I don't give legal advice without caveats to consult with the guy who would be at the table with you trying to keep your butt out of jail. You can't make enough on any job to risk losing your freedom or all your assets. George L. Church, Jr., CET Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax g...@rowesprinkler.com -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Antifreeze Update I am a bit confused on the matter of when to apply these TIA's. In jurisdictions using older editions of NFPA, the TIA would not apply(correct?) but since we, as contractors, know of the hazards there is a potential liability issue if we don't follow the TIA? We are currently purchasing a factory pre-mixed glycerin solution at the recommended NFPA ratio. It appears from the NFPA 13 TIA that unless the manufacturer gets a UL of FM listing that we can no longer use this product, correct? Thanks, Dewayne -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Antifreeze Update Yep except for those already under bid, a discussion with the AHJ to follow the NFPA 25 criteria is worth a shot. Also when servicing an existing system, unless less than 30% for PG or 38% for Glycerin, you have to proof it's acceptable in order to keep it. Well the ITM guy doesn't but he has to flag it for the owner with documentation showing he advised them of the issue and the owner has to obtain proof (deterministic risk assessment). Roland On Aug 23, 2012, at 2:14 PM, <rfletc...@aerofire.com> wrote: > Is the bottom line no new NFPA 13 antifreeze systems for now? > > Ron Fletcher > Aero - Phoneix _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
