Hard to imagine having enough paperwork to document the introduction of solutions we've just proved can explode and kill those we're charged with protecting.
For those of you who don't know, while Scott wasn't in nJ for the fireball, he was at UL for the replication of those fireballs and he said it was unlike anything he's seen. How do we politically correctly say it scared the Shiite out of him? And we've got folks putting this in today? Like I said, little in the "How stupid can we be" dept surprises me any longer. When the owner in ND or MN has an AF system, and doesn't want to spend the money to switch to dry- or likely hasn't GOT the money to do so, or if it's a CPVC system that can't go dry and its all occupied residential, drywall ceilings- the cost could be simply astronomical and beyond the $ of mere mortals, real estate LLCs and small corporations- then what choices do they have? If I knew that, I'd be in Mark, Rod's and Scott's backyards selling it. And this need will, soon, stimulate the development of suitable solutions. Until then- call Scott or Mark and get the opinion of a qualified PE (this is where I'd insert the Iowa dig if I wasn't in defensive mode and this being a serious life-safety discussion) as to options and make the best of it. Maybe a 10 PSI dry system of CPVC with 4 second trip Vizor or QRS switch could be done as a workable non-lethal band-aid? Better than napalm. George L. Church, Jr., CET Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax g...@rowesprinkler.com -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Scott A Futrell Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 4:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Antifreeze Update in Rod and Mark's neighborhood there are contractors using propylene glycol in CPVC systems (that's a no no) over 50% (that's another no no) and they know it because "what else can they do?". Scott Futrell (763) 425-1001 Office (612) 759-5556 Cell -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Antifreeze Update If you were in Rod's or Frozen Mark's neighborhood, where you need 180% concentrations to keep from freezing, I'd would argue that's reckless (and stupid). But if you're doing what NFPA said with the exception of it not being listed, I'd say until there is a listed one on the market the case could be made for continuing to do your business as you have, so long as you don't install the chance of explosion. We didn't stop installing fire pumps when #20 said you need a PLD or VSD not a main relief truncating the supply in order to control excess churn pressure. But once a listed VSD and/or PLD was on the market, you should have switched over to using the listed product. Let's face it, haven't we, forever, been using the FM-Approved version of devices on FM jobs UNLESS NONE WAS AVAILABLE, in which case we used a UL listed version as the best we could do, and just what we all used if it was something that might not have needed- or with some oddball devices, that no one bothered to obtain- a UL listing either. George L. Church, Jr., CET Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax g...@rowesprinkler.com -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Antifreeze Update Thanks George, this is the same way we have been looking at it. I was just wondering how the other contractors were handling the situation. We know that our competition has not stopped using A/F yet and to bid these same buildings with dry sprinkler systems would cost us a lot of business. -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Antifreeze Update Dewayne, I had a short off-Forum debate with a friend when the AFSA release came out- citing we MUST address known problems when we're aware of them. I would debate that all day if I had the time. On a parallel of when TIA's apply- CMS uses the 1999 edition on a certain date for nursing homes nationwide- or at least the ones that want Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements. Discussions direct with CMS made it clear that they enforce that date of the 1999 #13 and NOTHING ELSE matters. A case was attempted to be made that more recent editions of #13 are simply a conglomeration of all the TIAs from prior editions...it went nowhere with CMS, and the pitch was made by a nationally respected FPE and former member of the Standards Council. With that in mind, if I had the right to an opinion, it would be that unless your AHJ has adopted the TIAs they are not LAW. Now any fool of a contractor I would HOPE would not induce any antifreeze above the concentrations NFPA's testing didn't show as safe, since that COULD, again IMHO if I had one, bring in NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS STUPIDITY, or other things that might land a sprinkler contractor in jail or without a business or other assets due to a judge or jury wondering how someone could kill another with a sprinkler system. I no longer have any limits on how stupid I believe some of us contractors can be. Wish I could report a better state of the industry, but I can't. So I wouldn't worry about the lack of UL listing, but don't induce anything that goes BOOM and if I were your attorney, I'd be ok. But I'm a sprinkler contractor, and while I play PE without a license way too often, I don't give legal advice without caveats to consult with the guy who would be at the table with you trying to keep your butt out of jail. You can't make enough on any job to risk losing your freedom or all your assets. George L. Church, Jr., CET Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax g...@rowesprinkler.com -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Antifreeze Update I am a bit confused on the matter of when to apply these TIA's. In jurisdictions using older editions of NFPA, the TIA would not apply(correct?) but since we, as contractors, know of the hazards there is a potential liability issue if we don't follow the TIA? We are currently purchasing a factory pre-mixed glycerin solution at the recommended NFPA ratio. It appears from the NFPA 13 TIA that unless the manufacturer gets a UL of FM listing that we can no longer use this product, correct? Thanks, Dewayne -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Antifreeze Update Yep except for those already under bid, a discussion with the AHJ to follow the NFPA 25 criteria is worth a shot. Also when servicing an existing system, unless less than 30% for PG or 38% for Glycerin, you have to proof it's acceptable in order to keep it. Well the ITM guy doesn't but he has to flag it for the owner with documentation showing he advised them of the issue and the owner has to obtain proof (deterministic risk assessment). Roland On Aug 23, 2012, at 2:14 PM, <rfletc...@aerofire.com> wrote: > Is the bottom line no new NFPA 13 antifreeze systems for now? > > Ron Fletcher > Aero - Phoneix _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
