Excellent idea also George, especially in this case, which is oil tanker trucks transferring oil to rail tank cars! Thank you.
-----Original Message----- From: George Church [mailto:g...@rowesprinkler.com] Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 11:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NFPA 22 2013 Water storage re-fill time. Owner can have an agreement with one (or more) local tanker company to respond with x number of trucks to fill in 8. Heckuva lot cheaper than redundant or double sized tank. This should qualify as a means to fill in 8. Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2013, at 9:50 AM, "Morey, Mike" <mo...@bmwc.com> wrote: > From NFPA 22 2012: > 14.4.1 A permanent pipe connected to a water supply shall be provided to fill the tank, except as provided in 14.4.1.1. > > 14.4.1.1 Where a permanent water supply is not available to refill the tank, an approved plan shall be permitted for manually refilling the tank. > > 14.4.1.2 During the time that the tank does not have sufficient capacity to meet the demand of the fire protection system(s), the impairment procedures of NFPA 25 shall be followed. > > I would suggest maybe you consider (required supply GPM for NFPA duration) - (flow rate of filling source x 8 hr) reserve water in your pond which all but mitigates these requirements anyways, since it sounds like expanding the pond isn't out of the question. In which case your plan would be "if we have a fire within 3 days of the first fire we'll hire a company to truck in water and evacuate and impair the building per NFPA 25 until the water arrives" and then file that plan away under "things that will probably never happen, but just in case". > > > Mike Morey, SET, CFPS > Sprinkler Designer > BMW Constructors, Inc. > O: 317.651.0596 | C: 317.586.8111 > www.bmwc.com <http://www.bmwc.com/> > > > ________________________________ > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org on behalf of Brad Casterline > Sent: Fri 5/17/2013 9:13 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: NFPA 22 2013 Water storage re-fill time. > > > > Thanks Bruce. It is truly out in the sticks. 35 GPM well pump. The designer > is thinking if he made the pond capacity 300,000 gallons, after a 150,000 > gallon fire event the required water would be restored in no time, > literally, but it would take 3 days to re-fill the 'tank', and the book says > 8 hours max. (the tank A and tank B scenario was my idea, as a way of posing > what I was concerned about). I don't know quite what to think yet, just glad > I am not an A.H.J. :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: bver...@comcast.net [mailto:bver...@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 5:17 PM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: NFPA 22 2013 Water storage re-fill time. > > Brad, > > If this tank sits in a place with municipal water, but still needs a tank, I > would say you need to design for 8-hrs. > > Start of what if's... > > ...What if water department will only allow a rate of fill that is 12-hours. > Document well (no pun), and fill tank in twelve. > > ...What if you are truly in the sticks, and you only have, and can only get, > a 20 gpm well. I think some sort of minimal tank for back up, or rent > temporary tank system during major schedule maintenance, and live within > your means. > > Of course, restrict activites during this time. > > While you tank is down is not the time for hot work to support new > equipment. > > bv > From: "Brad Casterline" <bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com> > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:42:59 AM > Subject: RE: NFPA 22 2013 Water storage re-fill time. > > ok good, now then, if you are/were an A.H.J., how would you answer this > question: "How much time do we get to be able to re-fill a water storage > tank in 8 hours"? for example, 150,000 gallon capacity for demand*duration, > say tank A, from which the pump takes suction. Now we build a twin tank B, > and connect to tank A with 8" pipe with a shut-off valve normally closed. > There is an event and tank A runs dry. We open the shut-off valve and tank A > > is re-filled in about 18 minutes. The well pump then starts refilling tank > B, which will take 3 days. So the question is "how much time do we get to be > > able to re-fill the tank within in 8 hours?". > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 8:18 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: NFPA 22 2013 Water storage re-fill time. > > asking for a co-worker: > > > > 1) Why are water storage tanks required to be re-filled in 8 hours? > > 2) Would the requirement apply to ponds (man-made with liner in this case)? > > 3) Are there any alternatives to the requirement? > > > > (the pond is large and filled by a well pump with a pumping rate that would > take more than 8 hours) > > > > many thanks, > > > > Brad Casterline, NICET IV > > Fire Protection Division > > > > FSC, Inc. > > P: 913-722-3473 > > bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com > > www.fsc-inc.com > > > > Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
