I look at all the new Tech out there and see Fire pumps as basically "OLD TECH" or "Iron horse technology" According to Reti, the first machine that could be characterized as a centrifugal pump was a mud lifting machine which appeared as early as 1475 in a treatise by the Italian Renaissance engineer Francesco di Giorgio Martini.[2] True centrifugal pumps were not developed until the late 17th century, when Denis Papin built one using straight vanes. The curved vane was introduced by British inventor John Appold in 1851. With Goulds casting the first all metal pump in 1849. Since that time change has been intermittent and very minor. We see much more change in the drivers than in the pumps themselves, and part of that I think is the desire to keep them cheap, and the lack of financial incentive to look for better longer lasting more sustainable or more maintainable pumps. I contrast fire pumps with jet airplanes and the jet engine. In the 40's and early 50's the jet gave us more speed, but reliability didn't improve greatly until the mid 50's. Today's jet engines are miracles of reliability, in part to reduce cost, and the other part is to reduce liability claims from one crashing. Unfortunately Fire Protection systems don't cost what jets do to begin with, and life loss in fire is not as high national priority like preventing plane crashes is.
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pump Life Expectancy I looked that over. Was surprised at the 1% failure of electric pumps. But then I read the failure modes. I'm hard pressed to understand how a leak would cause failure for example. Even a healthlt leak should not affect the fire outcome. OK a full break is a failure, but I wouldn't call that a leak. Maybe I have to read closer sometime. A couple weeks ago I was at a site with a 1958 electric pump that has had minimal service over the years. New owner had it tested and everything is fine. Then I get another client that says they need to replace all their 1986 pumps (5) because they no longer work. Haven't got details yet but it got me thinking what is normal. Perhaps I just have two recent on the extremes? Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns & McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 [email protected] www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fairchild, Jack Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:46 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pump Life Expectancy NFPA has been trying to get a handle on the appropriate testing for fire pumps. With standardized testing using modern equipment and techniques, over time we should be able to develop a true life expectancy. Unfortunately we are not there yet and life expectancy is still just a cost/benefit question. A fire pump can almost always be repaired by throwing new parts at it. At some point the cost of the part outweighs the cost of a new pump. Ever had a car that just needed a radiator, a new head, or a maybe -just- a new block? Here is the final report NFPA had commissioned to review fire pump testing. http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/research%20foundation/rffielddatacollection .pdf Jack Fairchild -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:38 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pump Life Expectancy To try and give an answer, you should not be surprised to find pumps and drivers that are decades old. Diesels have the down side for reaching total lifetime hours of not running every day. On the other hand they run in as benign environment as you can find. They sit in a warmed room.They never start on a cold day in Minot. They run at a fixed rpm's . Fuel quality? They may have problems associated with the strange things that happen to diesel that sits in a tank. Similar for pumps. There are a range of technologies available for evaluations of pumps, especially bearings, electrical motors, including analysis of electrical signatures that are used by process industries especially. Diesel engines can also have more advanced analysis. The fire protection industry to my knowledge is not using these. We treat an annual pump test as proof of current output capacity. Go look at Fluke's website for some use of instruments. Could one paraphrase an out of date truism to "no one ever got fired for buying Fluke"? Diesel engines? Some of the pump run times were set in antiquity. I've wondered if less frequent pump runs, for longer time, would result in longer life span. I'd like to here what a manufacturer would say. bv ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Greenman " < rongreenman @ gmail .com> To: sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:01:51 PM Subject: Re: Pump Life Expectancy Gut feeling, not statistic based. Diesels: Don't use them regularly they die quickly. Don't use them properly they die quickly. If they're exercised regularly (maybe 25 can be stretched a bit, but I have no data to back that up so I'm not suggesting you ought to) per manufacturer's recommendations, or per NFPA 25, there should be a number of hours where oil changes, and other engine type maintenance (regardless of pump driver or truck motor) would be recommended by the manufacturer. There should be an overhaul recommendation. Electric drivers: electric motors don't need much attention and I can't imagine too much going wrong. The pump itself is a fickle beast. keep everything adjusted properly and regularly exercise it and they last a really long time. When the pressure starts falling off precipitously you'll need an overhaul. Of course a bearing or some other part could go before that. Don't do those things and you have a very short-lived otherwise robust piece of expensive equipment that you'll use like it was a throw-away item similar to a modern TV. And of course, multiply maintenance by a factor of more to much more if it's all in a harsh environment. On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Cahill , Christopher < ccahill @ burnsmcd .com>wrote: > Ballpark / Sanity Check > > How long with regular but maybe not full NFPA 25 maintenance should a > fire pump last? In-other-words assuming testing every other year or > so. I imagine an electric motor lasts longer than a diesel. Thinking > there is some mid-point a diesel engine needs an overhaul. Both I'd > think need a repacking of the impellor at some point. Thoughts? > > > Chris Cahill , PE* > Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns & > McDonnell > 8201 Norman Center Drive > Bloomington , MN 55437 > Phone: 952.656.3652 > Fax: 952.229.2923 > ccahill @ burnsmcd .com< mailto : ccahill @ burnsmcd .com> www . > burnsmcd .com< http :// www . burnsmcd .com/> > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For > *Registered in: MN > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org > > http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ listinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - > firesprinkler .org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreenman @bates. ctc . edu http :// www .bates. ctc . edu / fireprotection / 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE , SFPE , ASCET , NFPA, AFSA , NFSA , AFAA , NIBS, WSAFM , WFC , WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ listinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
