You hit the biggest problem with the Research Report right on the nose. It certainly weakened the value of it. It did show that tree was not a statistically significant difference in weekly and monthly testing for electric pumps.
Roland Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org On Jun 19, 2013, at 10:55 AM, "Cahill, Christopher" <[email protected]> wrote: > I looked that over. Was surprised at the 1% failure of electric pumps. But > then I read the failure modes. I'm hard pressed to understand how a leak > would cause failure for example. Even a healthlt leak should not affect the > fire outcome. OK a full break is a failure, but I wouldn't call that a leak. > Maybe I have to read closer sometime. > > A couple weeks ago I was at a site with a 1958 electric pump that has had > minimal service over the years. New owner had it tested and everything is > fine. Then I get another client that says they need to replace all their > 1986 pumps (5) because they no longer work. Haven't got details yet but it > got me thinking what is normal. Perhaps I just have two recent on the > extremes? > > Chris Cahill, PE* > Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group > Burns & McDonnell > 8201 Norman Center Drive > Bloomington, MN 55437 > Phone: 952.656.3652 > Fax: 952.229.2923 > [email protected] > www.burnsmcd.com > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For > *Registered in: MN > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Fairchild, Jack > Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:46 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Pump Life Expectancy > > NFPA has been trying to get a handle on the appropriate testing for fire > pumps. With standardized testing using modern equipment and techniques, over > time we should be able to develop a true life expectancy. Unfortunately we > are not there yet and life expectancy is still just a cost/benefit question. > A fire pump can almost always be repaired by throwing new parts at it. At > some point the cost of the part outweighs the cost of a new pump. Ever had a > car that just needed a radiator, a new head, or a maybe -just- a new block? > > Here is the final report NFPA had commissioned to review fire pump testing. > > http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/research%20foundation/rffielddatacollection.pdf > > > Jack Fairchild > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:38 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Pump Life Expectancy > > To try and give an answer, you should not be surprised to find pumps and > drivers that are decades old. > > Diesels have the down side for reaching total lifetime hours of not running > every day. On the other hand they run in as benign environment as you can > find. They sit in a warmed room.They never start on a cold day in Minot. They > run at a fixed rpm's . Fuel quality? They may have problems associated with > the strange things that happen to diesel that sits in a tank. > > Similar for pumps. > > There are a range of technologies available for evaluations of pumps, > especially bearings, electrical motors, including analysis of electrical > signatures that are used by process industries especially. Diesel engines can > also have more advanced analysis. The fire protection industry to my > knowledge is not using these. We treat an annual pump test as proof of > current output capacity. > > Go look at Fluke's website for some use of instruments. > > Could one paraphrase an out of date truism to "no one ever got fired for > buying Fluke"? > > Diesel engines? Some of the pump run times were set in antiquity. I've > wondered if less frequent pump runs, for longer time, would result in longer > life span. I'd like to here what a manufacturer would say. > > bv > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Greenman " < rongreenman @ gmail .com> > To: sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:01:51 PM > Subject: Re: Pump Life Expectancy > > Gut feeling, not statistic based. Diesels: Don't use them regularly they die > quickly. Don't use them properly they die quickly. If they're exercised > regularly (maybe 25 can be stretched a bit, but I have no data to back that > up so I'm not suggesting you ought to) per manufacturer's recommendations, or > per NFPA 25, there should be a number of hours where oil changes, and other > engine type maintenance (regardless of pump driver or truck motor) would be > recommended by the manufacturer. There should be an overhaul recommendation. > Electric drivers: electric motors don't need much attention and I can't > imagine too much going wrong. The pump itself is a fickle beast. keep > everything adjusted properly and regularly exercise it and they last a really > long time. When the pressure starts falling off precipitously you'll need an > overhaul. Of course a bearing or some other part could go before that. Don't > do those things and you have a very short-lived otherwise robust piece of > expensiv e equipment that you'll use like it was a throw-away item similar to a modern TV. And of course, multiply maintenance by a factor of more to much more if it's all in a harsh environment. > > > > On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Cahill , Christopher < ccahill @ burnsmcd > .com>wrote: > >> Ballpark / Sanity Check >> >> How long with regular but maybe not full NFPA 25 maintenance should a >> fire pump last? In-other-words assuming testing every other year or >> so. I imagine an electric motor lasts longer than a diesel. Thinking >> there is some mid-point a diesel engine needs an overhaul. Both I'd >> think need a repacking of the impellor at some point. Thoughts? >> >> >> Chris Cahill , PE* >> Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns & >> McDonnell >> 8201 Norman Center Drive >> Bloomington , MN 55437 >> Phone: 952.656.3652 >> Fax: 952.229.2923 >> ccahill @ burnsmcd .com< mailto : ccahill @ burnsmcd .com> www . >> burnsmcd .com< http :// www . burnsmcd .com/> >> >> Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For >> *Registered in: MN >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org >> >> http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ listinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - >> firesprinkler .org >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > rgreenman @bates. ctc . edu > > http :// www .bates. ctc . edu / fireprotection / > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE , SFPE , ASCET , NFPA, AFSA , NFSA , AFAA , NIBS, WSAFM , WFC , WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum @lists. firesprinkler .org http ://lists. firesprinkler .org/ > listinfo . cgi / sprinklerforum - firesprinkler .org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
