Good plan. Signed A Major Violator.
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Roland Huggins <[email protected]>wrote: > SInce we have wondered way off the technical path, I suggest we give this > one a rest. There's always the option of sending response directly to > parties if one can't resist. > > > Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives > Dallas, TX > http://www.firesprinkler.org > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:58 PM, Brian Harris <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > This was an interesting thread until you asked what we would do without > obamacare... :( > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > BVS Systems Inc. > > bvssytemsinc.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd - Work > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:44 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Home Fire Sprinkler Guidance - New Jersey > > > > Well, let's see. I would like to opt out of speed limits, paying taxes > and restrictions on indoor pyrotechnics. There has to be a balance between > individual rights and "the public good" (which includes providing a safe > environment). At times, the public good trumps the individual. Like it or > not, we as an industry have come as far as we have (and we have made our > livings) because of public regulation. If sprinklers were not required in > order to get a Certificate of Occupancy in large commercial buildings, how > many building owners would actually install them? A whole lot less than > there are now. There would be a lot fewer jobs because there would be a lot > fewer companies needed. > > > > It's great that you drink raw vegetable juice (as do I), but that is not > going to help you if you are hit by a bus or contract an infectious > disease. That is when Obamacare would come in. What would you do without > it? Aspirin and bed rest won't solve everything. Similarly, installing > residential sprinklers would not solve all of the potential problems, but > could mitigate or contain a lot. However, you still need the fire > department for the big problems. Opting out of that would be foolhardy. > > > > Todd G Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > www.fpdc.com > > > > On Jul 30, 2013, at 2:25 PM, Forest Wilson <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> Rod, > >> > >> I Would support an "opt out" program for people that choose to opt out > of government regulations. > >> This includes social security, Medicare, fire department use, etc. > >> There are some counties which have "membership" fire departments and > will not respond to a fire at the residence if the owner is not a member. I > read about such a fire recently. > >> > >> If I choose to eat healthy, exercise and take care of myself I would > like the right to opt out of Obamacare. > >> > >> If Ben Cartwright decided he didn't want a government official > regulating how he treats his cows or how many toilets to have in his > outhouse he should have the right to opt out. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On Jul 30, 2013, at 12:11 PM, Rod DiBona <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> Forest- I understand where you are coming from but have come to a > different conclusion after looking at the same evidence. An honest question > for you- Do you support any building codes for residential homes. Should a > home owner be able to build whatever he wants any way he wants it? Does he > have a responsibility to his neighbors and the first responders that are > REQUIRED to help when HE needs THEM? > >>> > >>> Rod at Rapid > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>> Forest Wilson > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 9:54 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: Re: Home Fire Sprinkler Guidance - New Jersey > >>> > >>> Im a marathon runner. > >>> I drink raw vegetable juice, eat mostly plant diet and meat on > occasion. > >>> The entire country is dying from obesity and obesity related illnesses. > >>> Many more than die in fires. > >>> > >>> Now "the people" have decided to mandate health insurance coverage. > Those who do not comply are subject to arrest. > >>> > >>> The "people" of NYC are now regulating various portion sizes in > restaurants so fat people won't eat more. > >>> > >>> Do I have the moral right to tell another person what food to eat or > what exercise to do? > >>> I don't think so. > >>> Do I have the moral right to tell them how many kids to have? (the > "people" of china have already done this). > >>> > >>> If I don't exercise, drink booze and smoke cigarettes I will become > Ill. My illness will affect society to a limited degree. In fact billions > are spent on healthcare. > >>> > >>> I don't need "the people" to tell me how to eat food or how to > exercise. Jack Lelane didn't need the "people" or government to tell him > how to be healthy. > >>> > >>> In my city they have a new lawn policeman that drives around writing > tickets for uncut lawns. As with any other government regulation if you > don't comply you are subject to arrest and imprisonment. Hes probably > making a good wage and government union benefits as Ohio has lost most > major employers and cities are broke. > >>> > >>> I'm curious how many will support government mandates if all citizens > were ordered to cut all fat food, destroy all booze and cigarettes and run > a marathon in a year or be imprisoned. > >>> > >>> It's a different issue? It's just a building code, it's just a > healthcare law, it's just an anti trust law, it's just a no smoking law, > it's just a minor regulation. > >>> > >>> For 100 years people installed sprinklers in buildings without the > government mandating it. > >>> > >>> I stay very healthy, somehow without mandates from "the people". > >>> Eventually there will be nothing left to mandate or regulate. > >>> > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> On Jul 30, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Ben won't go to jail because he didn't put in sprinklers but he'll > >>>> be denied a certificate of occupancy and when he feels tha Virginia > >>>> City is creeping too close to the Ponderosa and the good people of > >>>> that burg are creating too many laws that infringe on his personal > >>>> rights to ignore the rules of society while still reaping its > >>>> benefits and he wants to move he won't be able to sell the Ponderosa > because he built a substandard house. > >>>> Of course if Sheriff Coffee is doing his job a Do Not Occupy notice > >>>> will have been posted, no utilities will have been allowed to > >>>> connect, and if Ben decided to squat he would be subject to arrest > >>>> for not complying with the Do Not Occupy order, not because he > >>>> didn't install sprinklers, a law the society agreed was for the good > of all. > >>>> > >>>> I remember a Mad Magazine parody of Bonanza from when I was a kid. > >>>> Two things stand out fifty plus years later: 1. Hoss was called Ox, > and 2. > >>>> After an exhausting multi-day ride from the train station to the > >>>> house, the reporter that was visiting the Ponderosa was asked if he > >>>> was hungry. Upon answering affirmatively Ben stated, "Well, we > >>>> better get started. It's a three day ride to the kitchen." Most of > >>>> us though live in the city or suburbs, packed close together. > >>>> Set-backs are agreements between us as to how, among other things, > >>>> to not expose each others' risky behaviors. We each have to maintain > >>>> five feet of clearance from our mutual property line because we've > >>>> decided that ten feet of separation is a good idea. Now does this > >>>> onerous law not apply to you? Doesn't it infringe on your right to > >>>> use your land as you wish? Doesn't your liberty then force me to > >>>> build my house ten feet from the line, infringing on my right to use > >>>> my land as I wish, if I want to maintain a safe distance from your > >>>> selfishness. Or perhaps I'll use my land in our suburban > >>>> neighborhood for all day/every day open air rap concerts, or for my > >>>> steel mill. I ought not have to deal with zoning laws that infringe > >>>> on my freedoms. Remember that most houses change hands every five > >>>> years. Building codes assure me that if I'm buying your house it was > >>>> built to a standard acceptable to all at the time of construction. > >>>> Remember that I can't see if you built your walls with studs > >>>> randomly spaced of near three foot enters, wired it with lamp cord, > >>>> and used Cheerios for insulation. The building code protects me from > >>>> you, the unscrupulous or ignorant builder. In fact the first written > building code in Babylon proscribed the punishments associated with > building substandard (defined in this case as something that collapses and > harms someone) housing. > >>>> > >>>> If you watch the excellent HBO biography of John Adams it opens on > >>>> the evening of the Boston Massacre. John has heard the word fire > >>>> shouted and rushes outside, gets his mandatory for home owners to > >>>> have bucket, and goes to the closest community well/pump to fill it, > only to fid the pump frozen. > >>>> Living in Boston at hat time (population at he time: 20,000) > >>>> required that a homeowner build a certain distance from his > >>>> neighbor, maintain a pike (for tearing down houses to form a fire > >>>> break) and bucket for community fire protection, respond to all > >>>> fires upon threat of jail time for non-compliance, and perhaps act > >>>> as a fire marshal (the guy that directed fire fighting activities, > >>>> including deciding whose house was coming down to build that fire > >>>> break). These were very similar to the laws imposed in London a > >>>> hundred years earlier after the Great Fire of 1660(?). One of the > >>>> first building rules imposed on the citizens of Boston by themselves > was a prohibition against building chimneys out of sticks and mud. > >>>> > >>>> Atlas Shrugged was very influential when it was written, just like > >>>> 1984 and Brave New World, and for the same reasons; They all > >>>> addressed some very real concerns of their times, concerns that have > >>>> diminished or changed a century later. This recent resurgence in > >>>> interest for this childish paean to selfishness has accompanied the > philosophy of the "Chicago School" > >>>> theory of economics and may just be a favorite undergraduate > >>>> literature survey selection that attracted one of it's whiz kids from > the eighties. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 6:45 AM, David Autry <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> It seems Nebraskans are about as important as Kansans. > >>>>> I heard a former FM say once "I'm not going to tell some rancher > >>>>> out in the Sandhills he can't build a new home without sprinklers" > >>>>> I can't image why anyone (with some common sense) would build a new > >>>>> home without sprinklers. But, then again I KNOW the benefits of such. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> David Autry > >>>>> > >>>>> Meininger Fire Protection Inc. > >>>>> 2521 W L St. Suite No.4 > >>>>> Lincoln, Ne 68522 > >>>>> Voice (402) 466-2616 > >>>>> Fax (402) 466-2617 > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: [email protected] > >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf > >>>>> Of Frank Herrick > >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 4:30 PM > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: RE: Home Fire Sprinkler Guidance - New Jersey > >>>>> > >>>>> My heartfelt congratulations to everyone in New Jersey who made > >>>>> this happen, you have saved lives ! > >>>>> > >>>>> That’s a thousand times better than what's happed here in Kansas. > >>>>> Code official have been cut off at the knees thanks to the combined > >>>>> efforts of the HBA and the Realtor's Association. Local city and > >>>>> county cannot require sprinklers in single family housing > >>>>> > >>>>> I guess that the citizens of New jersey are more important than > >>>>> people in Kansas and deserve the protection of a residential fire > sprinkler system. > >>>>> As > >>>>> a fire service professional and a paramedic with over 25 years of > >>>>> experience I can tell you exactly what will happen in a home > >>>>> without fire sprinklers. > >>>>> > >>>>> Furthermore, I can tell you that the two most likely places these > >>>>> residents will relocate to: The Burn Center or The Morgue. > >>>>> > >>>>> Here is the Kansas law that will be responsible for the deaths and > >>>>> injuries to numerous Men, Women, Children and the elderly, and who > >>>>> knows how many > >>>>> firefighters: > >>>>> > >>>>> Kansas Statute 12-16,219. Cities, counties; prohibition on fire > >>>>> sprinkler requirements in certain residential dwellings. > >>>>> > >>>>> (a) As used in this section: > >>>>> > >>>>> (1) "Municipality" means any city or county. > >>>>> > >>>>> (2) "Residential structure" means any improvement to real property > >>>>> to be used or occupied as a single-family dwelling or multi-family > >>>>> dwelling of two attached living units or less or any manufactured > >>>>> home. > >>>>> > >>>>> (b) No municipality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, order, > >>>>> code, standard or rule requiring the installation of a > >>>>> multi-purpose residential fire protection sprinkler system or any > >>>>> other fire sprinkler protection system in any residential > >>>>> structure. Nothing in this section shall prohibit any person from > >>>>> voluntarily installing a multi-purpose residential fire protection > >>>>> sprinkler system or any other fire sprinkler protection system in a > residential structure. > >>>>> > >>>>> (c) No municipality shall require the installation of a > >>>>> multi-purpose residential fire protection sprinkler system in any > >>>>> residential structure as a condition for consideration or approval > >>>>> of any building permit or plat. > >>>>> > >>>>> History: L. 2010, ch. 116, § 25; L. 2011, ch. 43, § 1; Apr. 14. > >>>>> > >>>>> Very sorrowfully yours, > >>>>> > >>>>> Capt. Frank J. Herrick > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > >>>>> nk ler.org _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > >>>>> nk > >>>>> ler.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Ron Greenman > >>>> Instructor > >>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > >>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 > >>>> > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > >>>> > >>>> 253.680.7346 > >>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) > >>>> > >>>> Member: > >>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > >>>> > >>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > >>>> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > >>>> kl > >>>> er.org > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >>> ler.org _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >>> ler.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
