Bradley, Without checking your numbers for any kind of accuracy because your basic premise regarding loading is based on "say we...." That might work if you're right in your basic premises, just like Descartes' "proof of the existence of God," the basis of modern scientific method, while possibly a valid argument given some of his a priori's, is complete nonsense outside the context of Christian dogma, so your conclusions are only valid within a particular scenario. But even if your assumptions are correct, and so is your arithmetic, there exist the three factors which throw every supposed fixed set of conditions awry whenever they are present and interacting. Those would be men. women, and children. Your quantification efforts suggest an adherence to the tenets of grade school arithmetic, despite a pretense at higher math with the inclusion of variables, and that is reliance of "A" single and constant "answer" to any given problem. The basic formula Q = 29.83cd^2p^0.5 is base on a variable, an educated guess, a close approximation, and a number dependent on season, time of day, variations with each, the accuracy of the measuring instrument, and usually an average of the readings from that instrument in a snapshot taken over a couple of minutes. That's the real world, subject to variations we can't predict with a numerical accuracy that does not vary at all. Continuous math demonstrates that all numbers are constantly in flux while quantum mechanics suggests that anything you attempt to quantify can't even be observed without skewing the result. Now take a thought like that and try to do more than broadly quantify a possible fire in any scenario with variable contents and placement. Have fun wit your attempts at nailing things down to a right answer but please refrain from subjecting the rest of us that live in a world of variables and unknowns, and can only speculate on likely scenarios based on past trends and events, to attempts at finding the "true" answer. It's far too much like religious mumbo-jumbo. At least for the two promised months.
On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 7:58 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]>wrote: > I will try to shut up for a couple months later today, Forum Promise. > This is my pet peeve, that occupancy classifications are based on > quantity- combustibility-heat release rate, but no numbers are given. For > the last few years I have felt like a complete idiot because I have had so > much trouble figuring out what the numbers are. But I appreciate 13 more > because it is a slippery thing to pin down and that 'examples' might be the > best 'we' can do. Still, if we weighed the contents of the seating area and > divided it by the floor area we would get, say, 6lb/ft^2, and the same > thing in the kitchen is 9lb/ft^2. Since control mode is when the water > application rate is in equilibrium with the heat release rate and the 6lb > requires .1gpm/ft^2 and the 9lb requires .15gpm/ft^2, and worse case is > that every bit of the mass is converted to heat, and we have kitchen > equipment in the seating area, no matter what the actual numbers really > are, wouldn't it be reasonable to be allowed to interpolate the density > required, and find ourselves sitting on the fence > ? > thanks, I'll try to cool it now, > Brad > > > On Mar 1, 2014, at 7:07 AM, "John Drucker" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Unless of course the occupant load is 49 or less and then consistent > with the exception in the IBC its B (Business) Use ...light hazard. Beyond > 49 persons its A-2 (Assembly) Use again light hazard except in the kitchen > ordinary hazard 1. So just why is the kitchen OH-1 ? Is it because of the > trash cans, cardboard boxes, unprotected appliances such as convection > ovens, pannini machines, soup warmers and steam tables ? The again those > are also found in buffet settings in the dining room, along with omelet > Sunday. (seen that). Food for thought. PS Ron you are a wealth of > information, pretty cool how they make the flaming volcano effect on that > grill. > > John Drucker - Mobile Email > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [email protected] < > [email protected]> > > To: [email protected] < > [email protected]> > > Sent: Fri Feb 28 22:11:04 2014 > > Subject: Re: Hibachi Restaurants Occupancy Hazard > > > > This type of cooking is called Teppan. A hibachi is a charcoal brazier. > > Although it is used here as a cooking grill its true purpose was as a > > heater under the table. Since we're big on definitions this week. > > > > As far as a cooking appliance is concerned the units in these types of > > restaurants are single flat grills at a separation, unlike a cooking > line. > > The overall food output is much less than in a typical commercial > kitchen. > > They are also kept very clean as the customer sits around them. I'm kind > of > > wondering how each station is any more hazardous than lighting the Baked > > Alaska at the table. I suppose you could have a fire after hours but what > > kind of fire? This isn't in a kitchen stuffed full of combustibles, it's > a > > heat producing appliance in a seating area. And the grill itself is a > > special hazard so it will have some kind of UL 300 system, and even if > not > > overhead it will still cool, shut off the heat producing part of the > > triangle, and form an oxygen barrier across the grill. If the fire has > > spread then the burning materials will be the same as those in any > > restaurant. I'm not seeing anything special here. Light hazard area, but > > most everyone I've seen has been in a mercantile building so easy enough > to > > protect as OH2. > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Charles Thurston <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > >> Hello Greg, > >> > >> Are they "Down Draft" type cooking surfaces or do they have an exhaust > >> hood over them? Either type should have a wet chem suppression UL300 for > >> the cooking surface and exhaust ducts. With a down draft table there is > not > >> anything over the table to keep a lot of the heat off of the ceiling. IF > >> there is a fire after hours and there is a hood over the table the wet > chem > >> UL300 system has a better chance of putting it out. If there is not a > hood > >> the sprinkler at the ceiling will have to do it. There is one here and I > >> measured 130 degrees on the 10' high ceiling while they were cooking. > >> > >> Friday, February 28, 2014, 6:05:44 PM, you wrote: > >> > >>> I thought that this was on the forum previously, but I cannot find it > in > >>> the archives. > >> > >>> In a restaurant with Hibachi grills such as in a Japanese restaurant, > is > >> it > >>> considered OH1 for food prep or LH for seating? > >> > >>> The AHJ is on the fence and this is a retro-fit of a Light Hazard > seating > >>> area so calcs may be a problem. > >> > >>> We recently had a similar situation but we were able to correct the > >>> situation by replacing the SSP heads spaced at 12 x 14 with ECOH heads > >> that > >>> we could calc for OH1. I do not think that we can do this in this case. > >> > >>> Thanks for your input. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Best regards, > >> Charles Thurston mailto:[email protected] > >> Systems Design Manager > >> NICET Certified > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > > Bates Technical College > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > 253.680.7346 > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > Member: > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, > > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: > > This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is > privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, > intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the > individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are > made or intended to persons or entities not named above. If the reader is > not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If > you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately > by telephone, return this message to the address above and delete all > copies. Thank you. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
