I have to agree with Steve. There has been many a multi-family project
cross my plan review table with the
system designed to NFPA 13R because "the architect called it out on the
drawings", while also taking several
allowances for a fully sprinklered building. Thanks to Steve, and a
couple of others, I'm now well aware of
the limitations in the IBC (CBC out here), which allow that to be done
only if the design of the system conformed
to NFPA 13. Some pretty high profile architectural firms have made that
error, stamped and sealed their drawings.
A significant number of AHJ's don't seem to know that's the case, at
least based on the training classes I've attended
and taught. More's the pity.
Ken
On 4/22/2014 10:46 AM, Steve Leyton wrote:
Chris:
You know we're buds, right? Good, 'cause that's just regoddamnediculous. "Many AHJ's don't
have all the information ..."??? TFB - they owe their customers the professional service to
acquire and apply that information. You wanna be sued into oblivion after a fire loss? Do the
code analysis apart from the enforcing agency (especially if someone can show evidence later of
correspondence or opinion by the AHJ that maybe it should have been a different basis of design)
and then prosecute your work based on that "independent" opinion.
I agree that the architect is in responsible charge and typically they do a code
analysis. But they very often simply put "Sprinklers - Yes" or words to that
effect into the note block. It says in the code which design to use and if the Architect
can't or won't answer, then the BO should have the final say. Legally, in most cities
and states, they do have the final say.
SML
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cahill,
Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13?
I agree Arch is better to ask. As a sprinkler contractor you probably don't
have all the information to ask correctly. Many AHJ's don't have all the
information either. I've seen many a project go forward on this issue long
before an AHJ sees it. And if you call the fire marshal because that's who the
sprinkler permit is through probably the building official approved the type of
sprinkler. I was an AHJ for a long time and wouldn't answer. I'd ask you what
the Arch said and the building official agreed to. If I discovered a problem
later I took it up with the building official. When I was an contractor I sure
drove a lot of Arch's nuts asking. And yes they rarely knew the answer. We'd
talk it out and caveat the bid.
Chris Cahill, PE*
Associate Fire Protection Engineer
Burns & McDonnell
Phone: 952.656.3652
Fax: 952.229.2923
[email protected]
www.burnsmcd.com
*Registered in: MN
Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Forest
Wilson
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13?
I ask the Architect.
The problem with asking the AHJ is that they can change their mind later.
In Ohio, most of their approval stamps have an exception clause.
Ask the Architect, let the Architect ask the AHJ.
Then if the AHJ changes their mind, the Architect is caught in the middle of
the dispute.
On 4/22/2014 12:28 PM, Taylor, Galen wrote:
Let me add to what Steve just said: During the building plan check process a
trade-off may occur in which an otherwise acceptable 13R system is required to
be upgraded to a full 13 system. This fact may or may not be fully revealed
upfront to bidding contractors, so it pays to ask. And any questions you have
concerning the application of the code should be directed to the AHJ.
Galen Taylor
County of Los Angeles Fire Department
Fire Prevention Engineering
323-890-4339
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13?
I'm a little late to this thread, but I did want to address the initial
question, i.e. when do you use this standard or that standard.
Notwithstanding the annex language in 13R that's intended to clarify its
application, the bottom line answer is that it's up to the building
official. If you - as a bidding contractor or design consultant or
whatever your stake in the issue - cannot clearly determine the applicable
standard, a formal query should be directed to the building official with
jurisdiction.
Steve L.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
rongreenman .
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13?
Go Mark!
And even if the garages are used by non-tenants I believe the 13R designation
could still apply. If you look at 13R and garages, and I'm imagining the 2007
edition so it may have changed, there are three criteria for garages in 13R.
Depending on how they communicate, or don't, with each other and the building
itself seems to define how they are defined for design purposes. As Mark says,
just because 13R references you to 13 for a single point of design to follow in
a special circumstance doesn't necessarily mean you default entirely to 13. 13
references 24 but we don't install all the piping to 24 (although I did once
see a backflow installed about 20 feet off the floor, with glanded flanges,
Megalugs and rodding). 13 also references 72 but because I have to do a thing
(hook up alarm stuff) doesn't mean it completely trumps everything else. I know
this is silly but it's not far off. Just because 13R looks a lot like 13
doesn't make it the same. A zebra looks like a stripe
d
h
orse....
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. < [email protected]>
wrote:
A word of caution regarding semantics:
The building is either designed to 13 or 13R. There is no "13 for
this area and 13R for that area." If the garages are considered part
of the building and the building is eligible for 13R (as this one
appears it may
be) then the building is designed to 13R. The garage calculations
would be done to 13R (which happens to reference 13 rules, except for
the hose allowances).
Only if the garages are determined to be separate buildings would be
able to say 13R for the main building and 13 for the garages.
This sounds petty on the surface, but when we use these terms loosely,
the Architects and plumbing engineers pick up on it and start
spreading false
premises:
"We're gonna design these rooms to that 13R code and these areas to
13."
"You need residential sprinklers everywhere, except the laundry rooms,
because those have to be designed to 13."
"The apartments above are to 13R but the first floor mercantile -
including the open stair to the apartments- is designed to 13."
No, No, and No. One building - one design standard.
Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
http://www.kfiengineers.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of George
Medina Jr
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13?
Forum,
Can anyone please add there 2 cents in and help clarify when to
classify as a 13 system versus a 13R I have a project that consist of
3 stories with an occupancy of R2/S2 and Construction Type VA. The
project is lay ed out like a horse shoe with 3 sides and a corridor
running down the middle from
1 required stairwell to another on the opposite end, with a court
yard in the middle. There are private garages around the perimeter of
the building (which all have access from a common 1st floor corridor
only) All the Garages have a 2 hour separation between them and the
2nd level residential units and the 1st floor corridor. There are
residential units on the 1st floor (opposite the garages) facing the
court yard.
I figured the Garage calculations shall conform to NFPA-13, based on
NFPA-13R (2013ed.) Sec. 7.3.1. My question is if the building can be
classified as a 13R (with garage areas calced at NFPA-13) or should it
be classified as a NFPA-13 with dwelling units & residential heads
(calculations based on the greater of the area/density @ .10 or the
head listing). If not, what is the determining factor or the
threshold.
George Medina Jr.
Mobile: 323-906-5701
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Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405
[email protected]
http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/
253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)
Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC
They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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