One more thought, the BO and I had a great relationship. Often they would accept the yes on the plan sheet and defer to me for the right type of sprinklers.
Chris -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 1:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13? Yes, we're buds. Drink waiting next time I get to SD. Medium interfering with communication. I used to get calls "it's x story apartment, 13R or 13"? This is the first I've ever hear of such project. Now mind you I'm talking to the sprinkler contractor as I was the permitting authority for sprinklers NOT the building department. I ask what type of construction. And the conversation usually ended right there as most didn't have any idea what type meant. In theory could be type III, IV or V and be 'wood'. I was in an old city so on remodels III and IV were plausible. So yeah AHJ did NOT have all the information to make a determination. I'd ask what the code sheet said and they'd say there was none in the sprinkler package. Imagine my surprise it wasn't in the sprinkler package ( a little sarcasm there if it wasn't painfully obvious), AHJ did NOT have all the information to make a determination. What did the BO or Arch say? "This is preliminary hasn't gone for permit and Arch didn't know". AHJ did NOT have all the information to make a determination. Convers ation might go other ways, fire lanes, draft stops, attics, fire walls, blah, blah, blah from there with the same result, AHJ did NOT have all the information to make a determination. Believe me I tried to help but AHJ did NOT have all the information to make a determination. If it ain't in the BO's office for review the BO probably did NOT have all the information to make a determination. A phone call from a sprinkler contractor who doesn't know the building code results in bad decision making. I AGREE, with a PROPER Arch or FPE code analysis AND a submittal to AHJ (BO) NOW they have all the information to make a concurrence of the determination. A whole lotta stuff actually happens before this point where the AHJ did NOT have all the information to make a determination. Chris Cahill, PE* Associate Fire Protection Engineer Burns & McDonnell Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 [email protected] www.burnsmcd.com *Registered in: MN Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13? Chris: You know we're buds, right? Good, 'cause that's just regoddamnediculous. "Many AHJ's don't have all the information ..."??? TFB - they owe their customers the professional service to acquire and apply that information. You wanna be sued into oblivion after a fire loss? Do the code analysis apart from the enforcing agency (especially if someone can show evidence later of correspondence or opinion by the AHJ that maybe it should have been a different basis of design) and then prosecute your work based on that "independent" opinion. I agree that the architect is in responsible charge and typically they do a code analysis. But they very often simply put "Sprinklers - Yes" or words to that effect into the note block. It says in the code which design to use and if the Architect can't or won't answer, then the BO should have the final say. Legally, in most cities and states, they do have the final say. SML -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:41 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13? I agree Arch is better to ask. As a sprinkler contractor you probably don't have all the information to ask correctly. Many AHJ's don't have all the information either. I've seen many a project go forward on this issue long before an AHJ sees it. And if you call the fire marshal because that's who the sprinkler permit is through probably the building official approved the type of sprinkler. I was an AHJ for a long time and wouldn't answer. I'd ask you what the Arch said and the building official agreed to. If I discovered a problem later I took it up with the building official. When I was an contractor I sure drove a lot of Arch's nuts asking. And yes they rarely knew the answer. We'd talk it out and caveat the bid. Chris Cahill, PE* Associate Fire Protection Engineer Burns & McDonnell Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 [email protected] www.burnsmcd.com *Registered in: MN Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:39 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13? I ask the Architect. The problem with asking the AHJ is that they can change their mind later. In Ohio, most of their approval stamps have an exception clause. Ask the Architect, let the Architect ask the AHJ. Then if the AHJ changes their mind, the Architect is caught in the middle of the dispute. On 4/22/2014 12:28 PM, Taylor, Galen wrote: > Let me add to what Steve just said: During the building plan check process a > trade-off may occur in which an otherwise acceptable 13R system is required > to be upgraded to a full 13 system. This fact may or may not be fully > revealed upfront to bidding contractors, so it pays to ask. And any questions > you have concerning the application of the code should be directed to the AHJ. > > Galen Taylor > County of Los Angeles Fire Department > Fire Prevention Engineering > 323-890-4339 > [email protected] > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:06 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13? > > I'm a little late to this thread, but I did want to address the initial > question, i.e. when do you use this standard or that standard. > Notwithstanding the annex language in 13R that's intended to clarify its > application, the bottom line answer is that it's up to the building > official. If you - as a bidding contractor or design consultant or > whatever your stake in the issue - cannot clearly determine the applicable > standard, a formal query should be directed to the building official with > jurisdiction. > > Steve L. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > rongreenman . > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:45 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13? > > Go Mark! > > And even if the garages are used by non-tenants I believe the 13R designation > could still apply. If you look at 13R and garages, and I'm imagining the 2007 > edition so it may have changed, there are three criteria for garages in 13R. > Depending on how they communicate, or don't, with each other and the building > itself seems to define how they are defined for design purposes. As Mark > says, just because 13R references you to 13 for a single point of design to > follow in a special circumstance doesn't necessarily mean you default > entirely to 13. 13 references 24 but we don't install all the piping to 24 > (although I did once see a backflow installed about 20 feet off the floor, > with glanded flanges, Megalugs and rodding). 13 also references 72 but > because I have to do a thing (hook up alarm stuff) doesn't mean it completely > trumps everything else. I know this is silly but it's not far off. Just > because 13R looks a lot like 13 doesn't make it the same. A zebra looks like > a striped h > orse.... > > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> A word of caution regarding semantics: >> >> The building is either designed to 13 or 13R. There is no "13 for >> this area and 13R for that area." If the garages are considered part >> of the building and the building is eligible for 13R (as this one >> appears it may >> be) then the building is designed to 13R. The garage calculations >> would be done to 13R (which happens to reference 13 rules, except for >> the hose allowances). >> >> Only if the garages are determined to be separate buildings would be >> able to say 13R for the main building and 13 for the garages. >> >> This sounds petty on the surface, but when we use these terms loosely, >> the Architects and plumbing engineers pick up on it and start >> spreading false >> premises: >> >> "We're gonna design these rooms to that 13R code and these areas to > 13." >> "You need residential sprinklers everywhere, except the laundry rooms, >> because those have to be designed to 13." >> "The apartments above are to 13R but the first floor mercantile - >> including the open stair to the apartments- is designed to 13." >> >> No, No, and No. One building - one design standard. >> >> Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection >> Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | >> http://www.kfiengineers.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of George >> Medina Jr >> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:18 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: NFPA-13R or NFPA-13? >> >> >> >> Forum, >> Can anyone please add there 2 cents in and help clarify when to >> classify as a 13 system versus a 13R I have a project that consist of >> 3 stories with an occupancy of R2/S2 and Construction Type VA. The >> project is lay ed out like a horse shoe with 3 sides and a corridor >> running down the middle from >> 1 required stairwell to another on the opposite end, with a court >> yard in the middle. There are private garages around the perimeter of >> the building (which all have access from a common 1st floor corridor >> only) All the Garages have a 2 hour separation between them and the >> 2nd level residential units and the 1st floor corridor. There are >> residential units on the 1st floor (opposite the garages) facing the > court yard. >> I figured the Garage calculations shall conform to NFPA-13, based on >> NFPA-13R (2013ed.) Sec. 7.3.1. My question is if the building can be >> classified as a 13R (with garage areas calced at NFPA-13) or should it >> be classified as a NFPA-13 with dwelling units & residential heads >> (calculations based on the greater of the area/density @ .10 or the >> head listing). If not, what is the determining factor or the > threshold. >> George Medina Jr. >> Mobile: 323-906-5701 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org >> > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. 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