Certainly it has occurred to me but I would hope that isn't the case. There are some union and some non in the area. While some may not like that we are in their backyard I prefer to think that this issue is just a lack of sophistication on ths part of the badge.
Ron fletcher Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 19, 2014, at 4:06 PM, "Forest Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote: > > The COO is more than just a formality. > If an owner occupies without the COO, he/ she is subject to arrest by armed > marshals. > It doesnt matter if its a mall owner or a small homeowner out in the middle > of nowhere. > If she/he resists arrest or removal they may be killed, and at the very > minimum imprisoned. > Why would any sensible owner risk that over a piece of paper? > > A friend of mine is a roofing contractor. > They had a regional contract with a fast food chain; one of the projects was > in the greater Chicago area. They needed a sign off but the AHJ would not > schedule the inspection. Finally he went down to her office and she told him: > WE dont like you here (he was non union) and dont want you here. > He agreed to never do business in her jurisdiction again; in return she went > out and signed off on the roof inspection. > > Since you are the out of town contractor, have you considered that perhaps > the AHJ is sending you a similar message of staying out of town and not > biting into the locals work? > > >> On 7/19/2014 6:54 PM, John Drucker - Home wrote: >> Bob, >> >> Unfortunately they can indirectly by withholding a certificate of approval, >> compliance or occupancy. Most property owners need this document for >> closing, insurance or tenancy and or their attorney advises them that they >> will or have now broken an adopted law or regulation. So despite the >> illegitimacy of the code officials claim the property owner or tenant has >> now legitimately broken the rules by occupying without a certificate of >> occupancy and or certificate of approval. In other words the enforcing >> agency holds the cards. >> >> Code Enforcement is a legal process and like all or most legal processes in >> the United States the aggrieved must petition for relief, in code >> enforcement parlance by filing an appeal. The appeal allows the appellant >> to present his/her position to an independent body who will render a >> decision in favor of the appellant or the government. I cant speak for >> other states but in New Jersey decisions of boards of appeals are binding on >> the enforcing agency, but this is important they don't set precedent and or >> amend the code. In other words one could win an appeal in one jurisdiction >> only to have to go through the process in another. As for the state level >> unless theirs maleficence the state cannot overrule a local enforcing agency >> since the local enforcing agencies appointment bestows approval authority to >> the local enforcing agency. >> >> There is good reason for this, to avoid undue political influence, approve >> this project but not this one. So what's a contractor to do, file an >> appeal, that's the proper route, but keep in mind that boards of appeal >> typically set aside cost of compliance issues much like requests for >> variations cannot be based on financial hardship. So be sure the code >> official is imposing above and beyond the adopted code including any >> interpretive authority bestowed to the code official. Those in the >> electrical field know all too well about NEC; >> >> NEC 90.4 Enforcement. This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory >> application by governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over >> electrical installations, including signaling and communications systems, >> and for use by insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for >> enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of >> the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for >> granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules. By >> special permission, the authority having jurisdiction may waive specific >> requirements in this Code or permit alternative methods where it is assured >> that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining >> effective safety. This Code may require new products, constructions, or >> materials that may not yet be available at the time the Code is adopted. In >> such event, the authority having jurisdiction may permit the use of the >> products, constructions, or materials that comply with the most recent >> previous edition of this Code adopted by the jurisdiction. >> >> So there you have it in a nutshell, I'm not siding with either party just >> presenting information. Best wishes. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> John Drucker, CET >> Assistant Construction Official >> Fire Protection Subcode Official >> Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector >> Borough of Red Bank >> Red Bank, New Jersey >> Email: [email protected] >> Cell/Text: 732-904-6823 >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Bob >> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:49 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground >> >> What does unwritten policy have to do with anything? If it's not an adopted >> code amendment can they enforce it legally? >> >> Thank You, >> >> Bob Knight, CET III >> 208-318-3057 >> www.Firebyknight.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of [email protected] >> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:15 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground >> >> The stance of the AHJ is that their unwritten policy is pumps can only be >> used at 100%. They also believe that 1500 gpm pumps will only produce 1500 >> gpm, and we have to use 2 2000 gpm pumps to get 4000 gpm. They don't think >> pressure is even a factor. >> >> Ron fletcher Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 5:00 AM, "Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C]" >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> There are so many things wrong here. But, you may be able to make this >> work regardless. Did you take your 75% reduction in fire flow based on the >> fully sprinklered exception in B105.2? If you are starting at 4000 gpm, the >> required flow can be reduced to 1500 gpm if fully sprinklered. Doesn't that >> work with your pumps? >>> Duane >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] >>> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 07:51 AM Eastern Standard Time >>> To: '[email protected]' >>> <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground >>> >>> Has Annex B been adopted? See 101.2.1? >>> >>> Duane >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >>> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 07:35 AM Eastern Standard Time >>> To: [email protected] >>> <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground >>> >>> Hi John, >>> What Ron didn't say is that the AHJ is trying to connect chapter 5 of >>> the IFC and table B105.2 fire flow requirements to our sprinkler >>> system pumps. We conceded early on to furnish a redundant pump because >>> it was specified that way, but the FM is expecting the fire pumps to >>> provide the 4000 GPM from B105.2 at the sprinkler (ESFR) demand >>> pressure (165 PSI) and do so at the 100% design point of the fire >>> pump. We submitted our design with two 1500 GPM pumps piped in >>> parallel along with calcs for the storage sprinklers flowing at around >>> 165 PSI at the pump discharge. The city water system which supplies >>> the project flow tested at 5700 GPM at 74 PSI from two 4" hydrant >>> butts. No one at the AHJ's office understands how to read a fire code, >>> or any other code for that matter. They are "Code Alchemist", taking a >>> paragraph from chapter 5, table from the annex, and numbers from our >>> calcs, mix 'em all together in an AHJ beaker and BOOM!! "Minimum code >>> requirement". See? This stuff ain >> 't >>> all that hard. >>> >>> Mark at Aero >>> 602 820-7894 >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 2:24 AM, "John Drucker" >>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Like how you wrote; " everything is per code except we have". >>> "Except" ?, >> Are you/they saying that having two pumps rather than one is a violation; >> I.e. " 4000 GPM at 160 vs 4000 at 165" and you're short 5 psi ? So two code >> violations, two pumps and short 5 psi. Now before you chop my head off, >> consider two things wheres the one pump and 165 psi coming from ? Somehow >> apparently this has been planted in the ahjs head, I'm certain he/she didn't >> come up with it on there own. Now you're stuck. Frankly and using common >> sense are you hitting demand, does everything fit and work together, is the >> principal designer and owner ok with it ? Move forward. >>> John Drucker - Mobile Email >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]><mailto:jdrucker@ >>> redbanknj.org> >>> Cell/Text 732-904-6823 >>> >>> >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> How about everything is per code except we have two pumps rather than >> one.and we have 4000 GM at 160 psi instead of.4000 gpm at 165 psi. Most >> ignorant thing I have ever seen. Just found out the chief told plan reviewer >> no more written correspondence. I guess because they don't want a written >> orecord of their stupidity. Please forgive my frustration but I just don't >> know where to go from here.. >>> Ron fletcher Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:24 PM, "John Drucker - Home" >>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Ron, et.al. >>> >>> I don't know the particulars of your situation but we have a saying; >>> there's your side, their side and the truth. Perhaps there's an issue >>> with the code itself, a local amendment or interpretation. There's >>> got to be something driving this. >>> >>> Case in point about a reference standard, NFPA-72 speaks of wall >>> mounted smoke detectors/alarms and calls out a distance yet the >>> illustration in the annex is worded differently than the code. >>> >>> 29.8.3.3 Wall Mounting. Smoke alarms or smoke detectors mounted on >>> walls shall be located NOT FARTHER than 12 in. (300 mm) from the >>> adjoining ceiling surface. >>> >>> Yet the annex A.29.8.3 notes; "Measurements shown are to the closest >>> edge of the detector". >>> >>> According to the annex this would place part or most of the alarm or >>> detector FARTHER than 12 in. from the adjoining ceiling surface. >>> >>> It's important to note that Annex A opens with the following >>> statement; >>> >>> "Annex A is not a part of the requirements of this NFPA document but >>> is included for informational purposes only. This annex contains >>> explanatory material, numbered to correspond with the applicable text >> paragraphs" >>> Yet when brought to NFPA's attention the answer from the NFPA >>> representative was interpreted from the Annex material. This is >>> clearly incorrect, the annex and the illustration are not part of the >> code. In either case fix the >>> code language or the annex. The same happens in I Code Commentaries and >>> various subject matter books that often interpret, amend or supplement >>> the actual code language. In a nutshell our codes and standards have >>> become a maze of requirements, exceptions and interpretations. This >>> should be a warning flag to the code community. Perhaps the code >>> official has just reached his limit and is instead relying on >>> empirical experience in the face of confusion. >>> >>> I have situation at this very moment on two different projects that >>> impose an operational issue for the fire department, one that the code >>> is not considering. However my approach is to get everyone around the >>> table do some brainstorming and come up with an equitable technical >> solution. >>> Perhaps by finding the root cause of your situation the stakeholders will >>> put down their swords and solve the problem. Food for thought. >>> >>> Best wishes, always available should the need arise. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> John >>> >>> John Drucker, CET >>> Assistant Construction Official >>> Fire Protection Subcode Official >>> Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector >>> Borough of Red Bank >>> Red Bank, New Jersey >>> Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >>> Cell/Text: 732-904-6823 >>> >>> Safe Buildings Save Lives ! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sprinklerforum >>> [mailto:[email protected]] >>> On Behalf Of [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >>> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 1:04 PM >>> To: >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] >>> esprinkler.org> >>> Subject: Segue to AHJ's from CPVC Underground >>> >>> It's Friday so I figured I'd whine on the forum. To set the stage, >>> prior to the letter I am referring to we had approved permitted >>> drawings from the AHJ. The following is a quote from a letter we >>> received >> from that same AHJ. >>> "At this time , Blah Blah Blah Fire Protection District is denying >>> said plans and is requesting a re-submittal of new plans that exceed >>> IFC, UFC, and NFPA standards." Nowhere in the body of the letter does >>> he say exactly how we are to "EXCEED" IFC, UFC and NFPA. In the letter >>> they basically outline that what was submitted meets the all of the >>> codes. I was told by the author of the letter at a meeting the day >>> before that he didn't care what the code said because he is the AHJ >>> and per Section 104 of the IFC he can make us do whatever he wants. >>> Then he said "do it my way or there will be no Certificate of >>> Occupancy." We are 4-5 weeks away from a CofO and the change involves >>> increasing the size of two new diesel pumps that are being installed. >>> The fire chief told us to go to the State Fire Marshal if we wanted to >> appeal. I'm a bit frustrated with AHJ's right now. >>> Ron F >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] >>> esprinkler.org> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >>> er.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] >>> esprinkler.org> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >>> er.org _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] >>> esprinkler.org> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >>> er.org _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] >>> esprinkler.org> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >>> er.org _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >>> er.org _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >>> er.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > -- > Forest Wilson > Project Manager > 193 California St > Xenia OH 45385 > Ph: 937-736-0425 > > ///WHO IS JOHN GALT?/// > > ******This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed. 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