I’m hearing jurisdictions saying that the antifreeze ban does not apply to them. It is my understanding that NFPA intended for the new requirements to apply regardless of what standard is in effect.
DO NOT INSTALL NEW ANTIFREEZE SYSTEMS AT THIS TIME. Wait for the listed solution - but don’t hold your breath. Protect yourself and protect your company. The liability is too great to accept. There are other options out there - dry pipe, preaction, wet in a heated insulated attic, construct the attic out of noncombustible, limited combustible, or fire treated wood. If you proceed with the antifreeze installation knowing or not knowing this hazard, you’ll have nothing to stand on in court. Many will testify against you. I’m not an attorney, but if you proceed with that known hazard, it could be processed a criminal matter. This is not worth ending up in the clink. Tom Wellen > On Jun 3, 2015, at 7:57 PM, Cahill, Christopher <ccah...@burnsmcd.com> wrote: > > This is really a legal question which will vary by jurisdiction. NFPA and > various associations I believe agree with you. I've even seen some Fire > Marshal's state they are retroactive. But I don't think it has been legally > tested. I'm in a Hampton not a Holiday Inn Express but the way I read MN law > for example I don't see any way TIA's can be legally enforced retroactively. > It has to go through the proper Code adoption procedures as prescribed in > law. The biggest hang up is it has to be published before notice to adopt is > issued. If MN has just adopted a version of 13 (or anything else) and > tomorrow a TIA comes out it's hard to argue the TIA was out and part of the > debate during the code adaption cycle that would have begun 18 months ago. > Now if they are in the cycle to adopt they can certainly add it rather late > in the game as an amendment but then it's not a TIA and it's not effective to > previous version one would be working under while the next version is in > cycle. > > Chris Cahill, PE* > Associate Fire Protection Engineer > Burns & McDonnell > Phone: 952.656.3652 > Fax: 952.229.2923 > ccah...@burnsmcd.com > www.burnsmcd.com > *Registered in: MN > > > Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] > On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 6:42 PM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Antifreeze systems > > If a TIA is issued, does that become retro-active to previous standards? > > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > 2508 E Lodgepole Drive > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > 480-505-9271 > fax: 866-430-6107 > email:tm...@mfpdesign.com > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > On 6/3/2015 4:41 PM, Forest Wilson wrote: >> It also depends on what edition of NFPA 13 has been adopted by your >> jurisdiction. >> >> >> >> >> Forest Wilson >> Fire Sprinkler Contractor >> PH: 937-736-0425 >> forest_wil...@aol.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rongreenman . <rongreen...@gmail.com> >> To: sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >> Sent: Wed, Jun 3, 2015 2:27 pm >> Subject: Re: Antifreeze systems >> >> >> The reason I have no hair is local jurisdictions thinking they have a >> better insight into these problems than the committee because they >> have a "special" >> problem. I think they want the attic system because they're afraid of >> firefighters falling through the roof. My solution has always been, if >> this is a concern don't go on the roof. The shoe purpose of a 13R is >> to afford residents more tenable escape time. If everyone is standing >> on the sidewalk, surround and drown. Only my opinion though. >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:15 AM, >> Parsley Consulting < >> parsleyconsult...@cox.net> wrote: >> >>> Travis, >>> I >> believe you have this correct, however, there's also a hook in the >>> applicable >> sections for 13R systems. >>> That link (if you scroll down), shows you the >> page, you see the >>> revised section 5.4.2 for 13R, and it notes that ares >> needing freeze >>> protection can use anti-freeze if it is a listed solution per >> NFPA 13, and >>> the installation of that sort of system is to be per NFPA 13. >>> >> Sounds like the AHJ for you Jay is stepping way out on a limb. I >>> don't know >> if I'd do this sort of work with this sort of problem hanging >>> over the >> project, even if I did get the AHJ's instructions in writing with >>> their >> signature. For me, one of the early seminars I attended included an >>> advisory >> that "How are you going to defend installing a system with >>> anti-freeze when >> you know it has this issue?" >>> Or maybe ask the AHJ if they're going to >> defend you in court, and >>> definitely get that in writing, since they're asking >> you to install >>> something outside of the adopted standard. >>> *Ken Wagoner, >> SET >>> *Parsley Consulting*** >>> *350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 >>> *Escondido, >> California 92025 >>> *****Phone 760-745-6181* >>> Visit our website >> <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> >>> >>> *** >>> On 06/03/2015 10:52 AM, >> Travis Mack, SET wrote: >>>> Jay: >>>> >>>> The way I read that link is that you >> can use AF listed for ESFR systems, >>>> or you can use premix solutions in >> "specific areas" of a new 13D >>>> installation. It doesn't say anywhere that it >> is permitted in a 13R or 13 >>>> system based on that link. >>>> >>>> So, if you >> are 13R, I don't see how it would comply with the >>>> requirements. But, maybe >> I am reading something wrong. >>>> Travis Mack, SET >>>> MFP Design, LLC >>>> >> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive >>>> Gilbert, AZ 85298 >>>> 480-505-9271 >>>> fax: >> 866-430-6107 >>>> email:tm...@mfpdesign.com >>>> >>>> http://www.mfpdesign.com >>>> >> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 >>>> Send large files >> to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign >>>> On 6/3/2015 10:48 AM, >> Jay Stough wrote: >>>>> I have an AHJ that is telling me to install an >> antifreeze system in a 13R >>>>> attic. They have an ordinance requiring attics >> to be protected in 13R >>>>> and >>>>> 13D systems if deemed appropriate by the >> fire marshal. I was under the >>>>> impression that after September of 2012 you >> could not install new >>>>> antifreeze systems without listed solution, which at >> the present time is >>>>> not available. He is telling me that it just has to be >> premixed. >>>>> When I go to the NFPA website, at >>>>> >>>>> >> http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/fire-and-safety-e >> quipment/home-fire-sprinklers/current-requirements-for-sprinkler-syste >> ms-containing-antifreeze, >>>>> >> it appears that you can use premixed, even at the higher concentrations. >>>>> >> Am I reading this correctly? >>>>> *Jay Stough* >>>>> NICET IV LAYOUT >>>>> >> NICET III ITM >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >>>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing >> list >>>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >>>> >>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing >> list >>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >>> >>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org >> >> >> -- >> >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >> Tacoma, WA >> 98405 >> >> rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu >> >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >> >> 253.680.7346 >> 253.576.9700 >> (cell) >> >> Member: >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC >> >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >> >> A problem well >> stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and >> engineer >> (1876-1958) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum >> mailing >> list >> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
