I thought I had seen something recently saying that the 2016 edition of NFPA 13 was finally going to add listed window sprinklers to chapter 8...
Oh right, It was James Golinveaux's presentation for the changes... I think its supposed to be 8.15.25 So this will at least finally give everyone top cover when using window sprinklers in non-atrium settings. Benjamin Young On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > This is an interesting thread. There is Tyco's specific application > window sprinkler, which has been tested and listed for protecting a glazed > barrier (to keep it from becoming a ~crazed~ barrier). With the listing > comes restrictions, e.g. no horizontal mullions. Then there is IBC's > prescription for "sprinklers" with a performance based requirement to wet > the entire glass surface. > > Without full-scale tests proving a certain arrangement of standard > sprinklers can protect glazing with horizontal mullions, I would be forced > to put sprinklers at the top and at every horizontal mullion level. > > J. Scott Mitchell, PE > Fire Protection Engineer | > Projects Engineering > CNS Pantex | 806.477.5883 | > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark A. > Sornsin, P.E. > Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 8:15 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Atrium > > I agree with Geoff. The problem remains the total wetting of the glass. > This cannot be achieved with the horizontal mullions in place. Moreover, > can "entire surface of the glass" be wetted using standard sprinklers in a > water curtain arrangement as opposed to listed window sprinklers? > > Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection > Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | > http://www.kfiengineers.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken Holsopple > Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 11:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Atrium > > Roland, > > I don't disagree but..... > > If Section 404.6 (see below) of the IBC prescribes the closely spaced > sprinklers and the architect choses that instead of the other options > listed to protect the atrium, then is it that big of a jump to apply > Sections 8.15.4 and 11.3.3 out of NFPA 13? (2007 edition.) > > I only ask because the commentary in the 2007 handbook seems to allude > that the requirement to provide the curtains is driven by the building > code(s) and the NFPA 13 gives the how to. > > 404.6 Enclosure of atriums. Atrium spaces shall be separated from adjacent > spaces by a I-hour fire barrier constructed in accordance with Section 707 > or a horizontal assembly constructed in accordance with Section 712, or > both. > > Exceptions: > 1. A glass wall forming a smoke partition where automatic sprinklers > are spaced 6 feet (1829 mm) or less along both sides of the separation > wall, or on the room side only if there is not a walkway on the atrium > side, and between 4 inches and 12 inches (102 mm and 305 > mm) away from the glass and designed so that the entire surface of the > glass is wet upon activation of the sprinkler system without obstruction. > The glass shall be installed in a gasketed frame so that the framing system > deflects without breaking (loading) the glass before the sprinkler system > operates. > > 2. A glass-block wall assembly in accordance with Section > 2110 and having a 3/4-hour fire protection rating. > > 3. The adjacent spaces of any three floors of the atrium shall not be > required to be separated from the atrium where such spaces are accounted > for in the design of the smoke control system. > > Funny how the IBC doesn't mention how many sprinklers are required to be > calculated. Is a calc even necessary or is it implied that you go to NFPA > 13 for that? > > Best Regards, > Ken Holsopple > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland > Huggins > Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 10:57 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Atrium > > proceed with caution least you own the responsibility for something that > might leave a bad taste. This isn’t really defined by NFPA 13 so what is > your basis? The industry use to be (often still is) a little casual about > extending the age old guidance from NFPA 101 allowed ONLY for atrium glass > to any and all glass. Even there it does say the ENTIRE glass shall be > wetted. It was amusing that a couple of cycles ago NFPA 80A simply required > a Water Curtain for exterior exposure protection. That would work well on > a 4 story structure. 13 refined it’s exposure protection criteria and > part of that was to address run down and associated ledges and mullions. > It allows rather large protrusions but the exposure will be different than > an interior fire (so don’t casual embrace the sizes it states). The Tyco > WS sprinkler is rather particular about mullions too. Sounds like a common > thread not to be lightly ignored. > > So what level of insurance do you have for performing engineering since it > is not prescriptively defined by NFPA 13? If the architect wants it, let > them design/stamp it. > > Roland > > Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives > Dallas, TX > http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > > > > > > > On Sep 2, 2015, at 4:25 AM, Gregory Lindholm <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > We have a new school that has a three story atrium, and the Architect is > asking for us to protect the third floor glass with sprinklers place a > maximum of 6' on center, and not more than 12" off the glass. > > I originally assumed that we would use the Tyco Window Sprinklers, but > the windows on this project has multiple horizontal mullions in the windows > (4 or 5).lowed with the Tyco heads. > > I was thinking of just deigning it as a Water Curtain, with the regular > heads at 6' on center, with 3 gpm per lineal foot. > > Thoughts? > > > > Greg Lindholm > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
